i genuinely think this plays a major factor. vaccines are unpleasant to get and you receive a subset of the symptoms of the actual disease for your trouble (because the symptoms are your immune reaction to having a disease, and the vaccine is like a scrimmage practice). a lot of these chucklefucks simply don’t understand that while the vaccine isn’t fun, it’s far more enjoyable than dying of the disease. they’ll even plan on just avoiding sick people or justify they have strong healthy bodies and don’t need to worry (even though a strong healthy vaccinated body is the ideal place to stop a spread)
Oh please. I got the polio vaccine shot in the 1950s. Polio absolutely haunted families back then - I knew kids who wore calipers, and read about people kept alive in iron lungs. My best friend was bedridden for a year with polio. The vaccine was welcomed, and now no-one gets polio.
I have a friend who is antivax and her reason are spurious, based on something she read on the internet and a general suspicion of science. Needless to say she had the polio vaccine as a child. I feel superior to her because I AM.
No I dont think Im superior to anyone. You said you felt superior, so I just figured I would tell you that its just not true.
Its kind of hard to feel superior as someone who doesnt vaccinate isnt it? What is there to be superior about in that case? Naah its not that at all. I just dont want to risk the side effects.
right. they have brain damage from all the shit they caught, or believe jesus will save them.
i have had these conversations. If you want to be a plague rat, fuck you, die on an island with all the other plague rats.
not every vaccine is safe. the anthrax vaccine, for example, is genuinely like 1/10th as terrifying as anthrax. which is pretty firmly nightmare shit. what’s why no large population is given the anthrax vaccine. it’s only for security-critical personnel. you literally cannot get it, not even if you want to. it’s probably just straight up not available unless you have security clearances.
flu vaccines are ridiculously safe. a hamburger cooked rare is much much more dangerous than modern influenza vaccines. anyone who doesn’t take them when offered, and isn’t immunocompromised (so it would be a danger with no benefit, because not enough immune system to train and even a dead virus would put them at risk) is a fucking menace.
you are wrong. you are bad. you are going to kill innocent people, probably those closest to you, at random over the next few years. you are the reason we can’t end diseases. you are what is wrong with the world, because you need to feel special, but are too dumb and cowardly to do anything genuinely good. there are ways you’re better than a fascist, but, wow, it’s a small enough gap that I would not be comfy with that.
There are those CBD things I use when someone annoys me too much, can recommend. I advise also switching accounts during the next days to forget about this and not see notifications.
Finally, distract yourself with something fun to recharge the online fight batteries. Couple of days and you will be as good as new, I guarantee
My favourite choice is books but anything that sucks you in works
counterpoint: if I don’t push my limits, how will I ever grow strong? really, not practicing self care is exactly the same as getting my 30 minutes a day run or fistful of spinach in. not that eating disorders are off the table. you know, if I really want to toughen up mentally.
You dont have conversations man. :) I read your comment here and im just looking at someone who wants to talk and convince rather than listen and understand.
If thats your thing, sure, but its a hard sell to say its a conversation. :) You also sound angry, so you have convinced yourself that others are so dumb, and you are so smart, and why wont they listen. Lol.
I don’t think you’re capable of listening or understanding, and I have no interest in what you have to say.
yeah, I think you’re either profoundly evil or profoundly stupid. people are dying. children are dying. so fucking many. so I’m also a little angry. because you’re fucking killing people and there’s no point. there’s literally no reason.
We were on the cusp of one of the greatest achievements in human history. as XKCD put it: ‘killing one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse’ and you fucking delusional shit bags decided to switch sides. anyone who respects or listens to you is scum.
If you would meet me, you would probably be quite surprised. :) And you would quickly realize Im not evil or stupid. But here online, I understand its easy to think so. But you couldnt even guess my age or occupation. I know its easy to think that im some random guy living in his moms basement since I think differently about this topic. But you would quickly realize its not quite like that. :)
I just dont want to bet my life on not having side effects.
no, dude. YOU don’t think you’re evil or stupid. you are literally incapable of thinking those things. it’s part of what drove you to being a plague rat.
I don’t care about your age or occupation. I dunno, shot in the dark? crunchy granola middle aged woman, probably kids, maybe a job in design or a job that you just kind of adopted the mantle of being ‘the medical person’ in your social group without broad medical knowledge-phlebotomist, x ray tech, maybe something else like that, pooooossibly something managerial/legal. with lots of crystals and shit. I had anti vaxxers in my family. anti vaxxers before it was cool.
I don’t care what bets you want to make. you are not smart enough to make your own decisions. you do not get to make those decisions for everyone else. you do not understand what risks do and do not exist. you can read what i’ve said elsewhere in this thread, possibly to you. Your emotions are fake-ass confected bullshit to deal with being so fucking bored because you’ve never had a real challenge in your life and don’t really have to engage with the real world all that much, but you still want to feel special and like you’re having an adventure. you and your fucking suburban fear cults can fuck off and die, and if you could do it without putting the rest of the world at risk, I would be cheering for it.
Im not a middle aged woman man, that made me laugh out loud. :) Also im an academic, but not in healthcare.
I just wrote that to see that kind of person you think you are talking to here, and its just some lady that annoyed you in your past, so you react this way now to everyone who doesnt vaccinate. It makes sense.
Anyway, you are obviously so emotional about this that you cant really have a conversation about it, so lets part ways here and do something productive. I should actually pack for a trip to amsterdam tomorrow.
For me, its selfish reasons. The side effects scare me and Im not willing to risk getting them. My health is very important to me, and i dont gamble with it. Very little alcohol or bad food, no smoking, lots of sleep, mostly healthy food etc.
That’s fine…if you live in the jungle. But potentially killing millions because it “might” have side effects, actually makes you worse than the religious antivaxxers.
You can at least say they where mislead, or scared into their beliefs. But you made the rational decision to sacrifice other’s lives (and possibly your own), so you don’t lose your perfect health streak.
Of course its fine. People do all kinds of things for their own convenience and dont care if it hurts others. Building factories, polluting the environment, driving cars, eating candy, drinking alcohol, loud music… Someone innocent pays the price for this, in the form of tax money for healthcare, or just getting sick because of it.
You are just pissed off because you think vaccines are special and everyone should risk their life for the common good. It makes no sense to make a personal sacrifice for some common good in this area.
Of course I think the things you listed should not be done either. I mean, cmon. We would all literally be better off if we just agreed not to fuck each other over.
Totally agree with not fucking eachother over, but look at the last decade. Social media has turned everyone into little keyboard warriors. Now we are fighting eachother based on minor differences in world view, and demonizing eachother, actually believing we are fighting evil on our phones.
I think humanity is in a bad shape and all of this could easily lead to the same thing Hitler did. Because once you start to see others as less than humans, a lot of your moral rules no longer apply to them.
We should all take a step back. I bet 10000 dollars that if I met you in a bar and we talked about vaccinations, we could have a conversation without hating eachother. But online, its all radicalized now. Lets keep that in mind and not be so easily manipulated. Most people are good and have reasons for why they do what they do.
I think you just have an education problem around it. What do you think the chance of side effects from a vaccine is, versus your chance of getting the disease? Be specific.
The most selfish thing is to get the vaccine. Depends on the disease but your chance of “side effect” from no vaccine is at least 1000x more than getting it.
Do you also never exercise because you’re afraid of injury? Do you never eat vegetables because they could be poisoned? Do you never sleep because you’re worried about being murdered in your sleep?
If the chance of side effects are higher than zero, its not worth it for me. I dont even eat headache pills.
I exercise all the time in a gym. The difference between tearing down my muscles and letting the body rebuild them stronger, and vaccinating your body by injecting a vaccine into your bloodstream, is huge. Its not even comparible.
I eat veggies but try to pick ones without poison spray, like anyone else i assume?
Sleeping and being murdered… Lol. That education you talk about, maybe you need some of that yourself here. :)
So you agree, the chance of side effects from taking no vaccine is not zero, therefore everyone should get a vaccine. Correct?
You should stop working out, the risk of injury is non-zero, correct?
Your risk of poison from veggies is non-zero, you should stop eating them. Correct?
Your risk of being murdered while walking out of the door is non-zero, you should board yourself in. Correct?
Why are you only focusing on the risk of vaccine side effect which is 100x smaller than these other risks? You didn’t answer my question about relative risk so yours is bad faith response.
2+2=4, can we agree on that? I’m assuming you don’t.
I dont see consequences from the virus as a side effect. I only use the word side effect as something that comes from the vaccine, not the virus.
The rest of your comment seems to say that we should never do anything positive if it has any negative effects. Obviously you are trying to make a point but I dont think it makes sense. If i get tired from exercise, obviously its still worth doing. It has no long term negative effects or any significant risks.
The side effects of vaccines are quite dangerous. Its not like getting tired after exercise. We are talking life altering side effects that may mean you cant even function normally. But you know this already so im not sure why you pretend (i assume) to not understand. The logic here is very simple.
You can call me selfish all you want, but your examples of why people should vaccinate despite their side effects are a bit funny. They dont even make sense. :)
I understand where you come from even if I think we do have a responsibility to create Immunity through lowering transmission rates. It isn’t exactly noble but you have the self awareness to note that. Still the vehemence displayed towards vaccines doesn’t support your outcome.
Everyone who gets a vaccine effectively supports your health for you as it makes it less likely that it will spread to you who is unprotected. Many things vaccines are made to protect against have fairly bad long term effects on health. It doesn’t matter how well you personally take care of yourself polio permanently robs you of your stamina, measles robs you of the ability to fight off other diseases, flu can develop into long term pulmonary conditions and some viruses cause lifelong neurological problems. Getting any of those is entirely possible and just a matter of random chance.
I understand wanting to go through life essentially cheating the process by not having to experience any negative effects from disease or vaccine but it is essentially a lottery. Long term vaccine injury is a thing but the odds are very small. Those injury rates and the type of injury however are usually still less than the effects of getting hit by the diseases themselves and the rates associated with suffering the long term effects of one. However here’s where I become a little confused at why you’re advocating for normalizing your attitude : the more people who take the reasonable risk of vaccine injury the less diseases are able to transmit the less likely you personally are to encountering a debilitating and life threatening illness. If more people stop taking the vaccines your statistical outcome of getting through life unscathed goes dramatically down… So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
Yes absolutely. But its more important to me to be someone who is honest about my choices and stand for them. Like you said yourself, Im fully aware that my choices are selfish. And ive accepted that, which is why im also not easily affected by group pressure telling me im selfish. I know i am and I think its ok to sometimes be selfish and think about putting ourselves first.
I used to live in an apartment where loud music was being played every weekend, and I remember the emotional trauma of not being able to sleep on weekends after coming home tired from work and a long week. Just endless music and base through the walls until late into the morning. I remember at one point, I even bought wine and drank several glasses just because I hoped I would be able to sleep despite the noise. It kind of worked but my weekend was ruined and I was extreamly tired all weekend.
That story above is just to show how little people care about others. And its just one many examples. If you live on this planet, you know people put themselves first in many cases. I usually always care about what others think, much more than the general public seem to. But im not risking my health for others. Have to draw the line there.
Not sure I buy it. This honesty comes across as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If it were pure selfishness at play your ace move would be to encourage others to utilize vaccines so that your personal risk is minimized by upping the social pressure to get vaccines… and then just quietly not take them yourself. As someone who thinks it’s moral to protect people who are immunocompromised and cannot protect themselves except through joint Immunity projects it benefits my aims and the people I know who live their lives under increased risks they can’t personally mitigate to increase the social pressures to take vaccines.
Our goals should align here because as long as the social pressure remains hightened both aims benefit. Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
But that’s not what you’re doing and if you were really inoculated against social pressures than the increased social pressure of just quietly not conforming wouldn’t effect you negatively. You are effectively platforming your veiw that there should be less social pressure because you ultimately are effected by that social pressure and you want people’s tacit endorsement that what you are doing is okay. This isn’t ultimately about vaccines for you. It’s about how you’re personally made to feel about it and that isn’t terribly compelling in the face of altruistic endeavours.
The anecdote about the loud apartment music is something of an unnecessary red herring and a somewhat confusing one. I get that your premise is that people are horrible so you should be horrible too but is that really the answer? Those people were acting selfishly but if they were corrected by increasing the social pressure to stop by the residents around them making a fuss or by a culture that reinforces that considering the needs of people in your vicinity more highly is a common good you wouldn’t have suffered for their selfishness. Your way doesn’t see an actual reduction in the occurrence of the problem. It endorses more problems that are left to fester.
Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
I know, but like I said, its more important to me to be truthful and honest. I guess I have some kind of feeling of it being important, specially if im going to respect myself. I dont want to be someone that lies for benefits or public appearence.
You are wrong about what I want also. I dont need endorsement that what im doing is ok. I already think its ok and public opinion doesnt change that at all. I have my own strong opinion about this topic as you can clearly see. If others dont agree, thats fine. I was just starting to comment because someone talked about antivaxxers and assuming all kinds of nonsense reasons why we dont do it, like we dont like needles and shit like that. I wanted to say its about something much deeper - not wanting to risk getting vaccine side effects. And thats it.
And yeah, the apartment story was just to highlight how almost nobody thinks of the public good in day to day scenarios. But when it comes to vaccines, we should risk getting side effects and have no problems with it? Im just not on that vibe I guess.
“I don’t want to for [selfish reason related to lack of understanding of medicine and/or religion]. It’s okay that I put everyone around me at increased risked, because it makes me more comfortable”
That people who dont vaccinate are afraid of needles or uncomfortable experiences. Its a bit like watching Fox News discuss recent events and end up wirh the conclusion that not enough exercise is causing the problem. :)
You know, this happens every time there is no actual discussions going on. People assume they know things they have no clue about and they dont even want to understand. They prefer to downvote and act superior so their little weak egos feel sarisfied. :)
My fringe theory is all antivaxxers are just terrified of needles and playing the long con. They act like wimps so it tracks.
i genuinely think this plays a major factor. vaccines are unpleasant to get and you receive a subset of the symptoms of the actual disease for your trouble (because the symptoms are your immune reaction to having a disease, and the vaccine is like a scrimmage practice). a lot of these chucklefucks simply don’t understand that while the vaccine isn’t fun, it’s far more enjoyable than dying of the disease. they’ll even plan on just avoiding sick people or justify they have strong healthy bodies and don’t need to worry (even though a strong healthy vaccinated body is the ideal place to stop a spread)
You guys sure think a lot of wrong things :)
If you are actually interested, you can just talk to someone who doesnt vaccinate themselves and ask why.
Its sooo simple. But not if you shut down conversations, insult people and act like are superior for doing what you are told.
The science has been clear for decades so quit being dumb. All the cool kids know vaccines are safe and effective.
Oh please. I got the polio vaccine shot in the 1950s. Polio absolutely haunted families back then - I knew kids who wore calipers, and read about people kept alive in iron lungs. My best friend was bedridden for a year with polio. The vaccine was welcomed, and now no-one gets polio.
I have a friend who is antivax and her reason are spurious, based on something she read on the internet and a general suspicion of science. Needless to say she had the polio vaccine as a child. I feel superior to her because I AM.
You really arent. But I guess you need to believe that to feel good about your behavior. :)
Ha ha, that’s exactly what my friend is like - she feels superior to ME so she can feel good about her behaviour. i guess the same goes for you, lol.
No I dont think Im superior to anyone. You said you felt superior, so I just figured I would tell you that its just not true.
Its kind of hard to feel superior as someone who doesnt vaccinate isnt it? What is there to be superior about in that case? Naah its not that at all. I just dont want to risk the side effects.
Alright, tell us all about why you are antivaxx?
Its in this thread. Go read the entire thing. :)
right. they have brain damage from all the shit they caught, or believe jesus will save them.
i have had these conversations. If you want to be a plague rat, fuck you, die on an island with all the other plague rats.
not every vaccine is safe. the anthrax vaccine, for example, is genuinely like 1/10th as terrifying as anthrax. which is pretty firmly nightmare shit. what’s why no large population is given the anthrax vaccine. it’s only for security-critical personnel. you literally cannot get it, not even if you want to. it’s probably just straight up not available unless you have security clearances.
flu vaccines are ridiculously safe. a hamburger cooked rare is much much more dangerous than modern influenza vaccines. anyone who doesn’t take them when offered, and isn’t immunocompromised (so it would be a danger with no benefit, because not enough immune system to train and even a dead virus would put them at risk) is a fucking menace.
you are wrong. you are bad. you are going to kill innocent people, probably those closest to you, at random over the next few years. you are the reason we can’t end diseases. you are what is wrong with the world, because you need to feel special, but are too dumb and cowardly to do anything genuinely good. there are ways you’re better than a fascist, but, wow, it’s a small enough gap that I would not be comfy with that.
Holy shit that was intense. How do you feel now?
There are those CBD things I use when someone annoys me too much, can recommend. I advise also switching accounts during the next days to forget about this and not see notifications.
Finally, distract yourself with something fun to recharge the online fight batteries. Couple of days and you will be as good as new, I guarantee
My favourite choice is books but anything that sucks you in works
I just blocked it. I have some industrial strength edibles ready next time I can afford to lose a whole day. which is a few hours from now.
Take care and remember to treat mental health hygiene seriously. The best cure is prevention after all
counterpoint: if I don’t push my limits, how will I ever grow strong? really, not practicing self care is exactly the same as getting my 30 minutes a day run or fistful of spinach in. not that eating disorders are off the table. you know, if I really want to toughen up mentally.
Well yes but honestly I am not sure if toughening up is really what most people think it is and want it.
It’s better to feel more than feel kinda empty from all the toughening. There is no value in suffering
You dont have conversations man. :) I read your comment here and im just looking at someone who wants to talk and convince rather than listen and understand.
If thats your thing, sure, but its a hard sell to say its a conversation. :) You also sound angry, so you have convinced yourself that others are so dumb, and you are so smart, and why wont they listen. Lol.
I don’t think you’re capable of listening or understanding, and I have no interest in what you have to say.
yeah, I think you’re either profoundly evil or profoundly stupid. people are dying. children are dying. so fucking many. so I’m also a little angry. because you’re fucking killing people and there’s no point. there’s literally no reason.
We were on the cusp of one of the greatest achievements in human history. as XKCD put it: ‘killing one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse’ and you fucking delusional shit bags decided to switch sides. anyone who respects or listens to you is scum.
If you would meet me, you would probably be quite surprised. :) And you would quickly realize Im not evil or stupid. But here online, I understand its easy to think so. But you couldnt even guess my age or occupation. I know its easy to think that im some random guy living in his moms basement since I think differently about this topic. But you would quickly realize its not quite like that. :)
I just dont want to bet my life on not having side effects.
I don’t want to meet you, plague rat.
no, dude. YOU don’t think you’re evil or stupid. you are literally incapable of thinking those things. it’s part of what drove you to being a plague rat.
I don’t care about your age or occupation. I dunno, shot in the dark? crunchy granola middle aged woman, probably kids, maybe a job in design or a job that you just kind of adopted the mantle of being ‘the medical person’ in your social group without broad medical knowledge-phlebotomist, x ray tech, maybe something else like that, pooooossibly something managerial/legal. with lots of crystals and shit. I had anti vaxxers in my family. anti vaxxers before it was cool.
I don’t care what bets you want to make. you are not smart enough to make your own decisions. you do not get to make those decisions for everyone else. you do not understand what risks do and do not exist. you can read what i’ve said elsewhere in this thread, possibly to you. Your emotions are fake-ass confected bullshit to deal with being so fucking bored because you’ve never had a real challenge in your life and don’t really have to engage with the real world all that much, but you still want to feel special and like you’re having an adventure. you and your fucking suburban fear cults can fuck off and die, and if you could do it without putting the rest of the world at risk, I would be cheering for it.
but you can’t.
Im not a middle aged woman man, that made me laugh out loud. :) Also im an academic, but not in healthcare.
I just wrote that to see that kind of person you think you are talking to here, and its just some lady that annoyed you in your past, so you react this way now to everyone who doesnt vaccinate. It makes sense.
Anyway, you are obviously so emotional about this that you cant really have a conversation about it, so lets part ways here and do something productive. I should actually pack for a trip to amsterdam tomorrow.
We are done talking. Talking did us no good. Now we take down the Nazis, and save lives.
Nobody owes you politeness when you walk around spreading diseases. You’ve chosen to make your existence into a threat to others.
I know where this is going but what the hell I’ll bite. Why don’t you vaccinate yourself?
For me, its selfish reasons. The side effects scare me and Im not willing to risk getting them. My health is very important to me, and i dont gamble with it. Very little alcohol or bad food, no smoking, lots of sleep, mostly healthy food etc.
That’s fine…if you live in the jungle. But potentially killing millions because it “might” have side effects, actually makes you worse than the religious antivaxxers.
You can at least say they where mislead, or scared into their beliefs. But you made the rational decision to sacrifice other’s lives (and possibly your own), so you don’t lose your perfect health streak.
Of course its fine. People do all kinds of things for their own convenience and dont care if it hurts others. Building factories, polluting the environment, driving cars, eating candy, drinking alcohol, loud music… Someone innocent pays the price for this, in the form of tax money for healthcare, or just getting sick because of it.
You are just pissed off because you think vaccines are special and everyone should risk their life for the common good. It makes no sense to make a personal sacrifice for some common good in this area.
Of course I think the things you listed should not be done either. I mean, cmon. We would all literally be better off if we just agreed not to fuck each other over.
But war it is I guess. War to the last human.
Totally agree with not fucking eachother over, but look at the last decade. Social media has turned everyone into little keyboard warriors. Now we are fighting eachother based on minor differences in world view, and demonizing eachother, actually believing we are fighting evil on our phones.
I think humanity is in a bad shape and all of this could easily lead to the same thing Hitler did. Because once you start to see others as less than humans, a lot of your moral rules no longer apply to them.
We should all take a step back. I bet 10000 dollars that if I met you in a bar and we talked about vaccinations, we could have a conversation without hating eachother. But online, its all radicalized now. Lets keep that in mind and not be so easily manipulated. Most people are good and have reasons for why they do what they do.
My health is very important to me, that’s why I want to die from preventable diseases.
I think you just have an education problem around it. What do you think the chance of side effects from a vaccine is, versus your chance of getting the disease? Be specific.
The most selfish thing is to get the vaccine. Depends on the disease but your chance of “side effect” from no vaccine is at least 1000x more than getting it.
Do you also never exercise because you’re afraid of injury? Do you never eat vegetables because they could be poisoned? Do you never sleep because you’re worried about being murdered in your sleep?
If the chance of side effects are higher than zero, its not worth it for me. I dont even eat headache pills.
I exercise all the time in a gym. The difference between tearing down my muscles and letting the body rebuild them stronger, and vaccinating your body by injecting a vaccine into your bloodstream, is huge. Its not even comparible.
I eat veggies but try to pick ones without poison spray, like anyone else i assume?
Sleeping and being murdered… Lol. That education you talk about, maybe you need some of that yourself here. :)
So you agree, the chance of side effects from taking no vaccine is not zero, therefore everyone should get a vaccine. Correct?
You should stop working out, the risk of injury is non-zero, correct?
Your risk of poison from veggies is non-zero, you should stop eating them. Correct?
Your risk of being murdered while walking out of the door is non-zero, you should board yourself in. Correct?
Why are you only focusing on the risk of vaccine side effect which is 100x smaller than these other risks? You didn’t answer my question about relative risk so yours is bad faith response.
2+2=4, can we agree on that? I’m assuming you don’t.
I dont see consequences from the virus as a side effect. I only use the word side effect as something that comes from the vaccine, not the virus.
The rest of your comment seems to say that we should never do anything positive if it has any negative effects. Obviously you are trying to make a point but I dont think it makes sense. If i get tired from exercise, obviously its still worth doing. It has no long term negative effects or any significant risks.
The side effects of vaccines are quite dangerous. Its not like getting tired after exercise. We are talking life altering side effects that may mean you cant even function normally. But you know this already so im not sure why you pretend (i assume) to not understand. The logic here is very simple.
You can call me selfish all you want, but your examples of why people should vaccinate despite their side effects are a bit funny. They dont even make sense. :)
Classic.
Makes perfect sense in my opinion.
I know! That’s what makes it classic.
I understand where you come from even if I think we do have a responsibility to create Immunity through lowering transmission rates. It isn’t exactly noble but you have the self awareness to note that. Still the vehemence displayed towards vaccines doesn’t support your outcome.
Everyone who gets a vaccine effectively supports your health for you as it makes it less likely that it will spread to you who is unprotected. Many things vaccines are made to protect against have fairly bad long term effects on health. It doesn’t matter how well you personally take care of yourself polio permanently robs you of your stamina, measles robs you of the ability to fight off other diseases, flu can develop into long term pulmonary conditions and some viruses cause lifelong neurological problems. Getting any of those is entirely possible and just a matter of random chance.
I understand wanting to go through life essentially cheating the process by not having to experience any negative effects from disease or vaccine but it is essentially a lottery. Long term vaccine injury is a thing but the odds are very small. Those injury rates and the type of injury however are usually still less than the effects of getting hit by the diseases themselves and the rates associated with suffering the long term effects of one. However here’s where I become a little confused at why you’re advocating for normalizing your attitude : the more people who take the reasonable risk of vaccine injury the less diseases are able to transmit the less likely you personally are to encountering a debilitating and life threatening illness. If more people stop taking the vaccines your statistical outcome of getting through life unscathed goes dramatically down… So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
Yes absolutely. But its more important to me to be someone who is honest about my choices and stand for them. Like you said yourself, Im fully aware that my choices are selfish. And ive accepted that, which is why im also not easily affected by group pressure telling me im selfish. I know i am and I think its ok to sometimes be selfish and think about putting ourselves first.
I used to live in an apartment where loud music was being played every weekend, and I remember the emotional trauma of not being able to sleep on weekends after coming home tired from work and a long week. Just endless music and base through the walls until late into the morning. I remember at one point, I even bought wine and drank several glasses just because I hoped I would be able to sleep despite the noise. It kind of worked but my weekend was ruined and I was extreamly tired all weekend.
That story above is just to show how little people care about others. And its just one many examples. If you live on this planet, you know people put themselves first in many cases. I usually always care about what others think, much more than the general public seem to. But im not risking my health for others. Have to draw the line there.
Not sure I buy it. This honesty comes across as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If it were pure selfishness at play your ace move would be to encourage others to utilize vaccines so that your personal risk is minimized by upping the social pressure to get vaccines… and then just quietly not take them yourself. As someone who thinks it’s moral to protect people who are immunocompromised and cannot protect themselves except through joint Immunity projects it benefits my aims and the people I know who live their lives under increased risks they can’t personally mitigate to increase the social pressures to take vaccines.
Our goals should align here because as long as the social pressure remains hightened both aims benefit. Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
But that’s not what you’re doing and if you were really inoculated against social pressures than the increased social pressure of just quietly not conforming wouldn’t effect you negatively. You are effectively platforming your veiw that there should be less social pressure because you ultimately are effected by that social pressure and you want people’s tacit endorsement that what you are doing is okay. This isn’t ultimately about vaccines for you. It’s about how you’re personally made to feel about it and that isn’t terribly compelling in the face of altruistic endeavours.
The anecdote about the loud apartment music is something of an unnecessary red herring and a somewhat confusing one. I get that your premise is that people are horrible so you should be horrible too but is that really the answer? Those people were acting selfishly but if they were corrected by increasing the social pressure to stop by the residents around them making a fuss or by a culture that reinforces that considering the needs of people in your vicinity more highly is a common good you wouldn’t have suffered for their selfishness. Your way doesn’t see an actual reduction in the occurrence of the problem. It endorses more problems that are left to fester.
I know, but like I said, its more important to me to be truthful and honest. I guess I have some kind of feeling of it being important, specially if im going to respect myself. I dont want to be someone that lies for benefits or public appearence.
You are wrong about what I want also. I dont need endorsement that what im doing is ok. I already think its ok and public opinion doesnt change that at all. I have my own strong opinion about this topic as you can clearly see. If others dont agree, thats fine. I was just starting to comment because someone talked about antivaxxers and assuming all kinds of nonsense reasons why we dont do it, like we dont like needles and shit like that. I wanted to say its about something much deeper - not wanting to risk getting vaccine side effects. And thats it.
And yeah, the apartment story was just to highlight how almost nobody thinks of the public good in day to day scenarios. But when it comes to vaccines, we should risk getting side effects and have no problems with it? Im just not on that vibe I guess.
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“I don’t want to for [selfish reason related to lack of understanding of medicine and/or religion]. It’s okay that I put everyone around me at increased risked, because it makes me more comfortable”
Selfish reasons is true.
My mom refused to vaccinate my siblings. God told her not to.
What are the wrong things those guys sure think?
That people who dont vaccinate are afraid of needles or uncomfortable experiences. Its a bit like watching Fox News discuss recent events and end up wirh the conclusion that not enough exercise is causing the problem. :)
You know, this happens every time there is no actual discussions going on. People assume they know things they have no clue about and they dont even want to understand. They prefer to downvote and act superior so their little weak egos feel sarisfied. :)
Wow a misogynist and a selfish anti-vaxer. Keep it up and you’ll have a trifecta!
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Always bring a cat to the thread. :)
that is 100% the case.