In a conversation with AfD leader Alice Weidel on X, Musk concurred with her assertion that Adolf Hitler was a communist and pushed disinformation about migrants coming into the US.
There’s a large difference between taking care of your personal living space and having communal services, and maintaining sewers and toxic waste is at a far worse level. Legitimately, you’re digging a deeper logical hole here.
You’ll have plenty of protective equipment. That’s not the issue. You’ll even have robots.
The issue, I think, is that you don’t know what it’s like to be part of a tribe, never have felt the solidarity and the motivation to contribute according to your abilities that comes along with it.
I thought you were an Anarchist, why are you requiring society to advance to full automation of dirty jobs before changing the system? What happens between now and that level of automation?
I absolutely know solidarity, I’ve worked in factories and industrial environments, alongside union members and leaders, and have contributed to my family and community. You’re making assumptions about me to try to dig yourself out of a logical hole. You want incredibly advanced technology and people to willingly take dirty jobs, but to not have any formalized administration beyond the informal structures that arise naturally. You want this now, but can’t describe how to get there beyond “solidarity.”
What you are describing is fantasy. You can’t describe how you’d get people to do the unquestionably horrible jobs that are nonetheless necessary without requiring them to be automated. The real issue is that you seem to be detatched from the broad working class and think everyone would magically do what’s needed without any administration or direction, this is not even in line with Anarchist thinking.
I suggest reading The Tyranny of Structurelessness, it’s the formalizing of structure that provides for actual democracy and collective aggreement, leaving it informal and based on respect leaves it unaccountable.
What happens between now and that level of automation?
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
You’re making assumptions about me
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
You want this now,
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.
You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism.
No. I would rather have liberal democracy than regress to feudalism with a different coat of paint. Actionism is a trap, the system is begging you to oppose it in certain ways because doing so will only reinforce it. If you want to sit on the long end of the leaver, you might need to walk some distance.
their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living
Then get them safety equipment and robots.
You want things to be de-commodified, don’t you? “A stateless, classless, moneyless society”. You say currently sewerage workers are compelled by money, I take that to mean that you think they only do it because they need money because otherwise they’d starve.
But they would be supplied for in communism whether they do that job or not. So why would they still choose to do the work? For the greater good, of course. This isn’t something that’s unique to Anarchism. You’re trying to saw off a branch that you yourself are sitting on.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not?
In a soviet-style state: Definitely not. You need freedom of association to be able to get people used to the necessary modes of organisation. The USSR did not tolerate such things, China does not tolerate such things. The reason is simple: They do understand that it is in direct contradiction to the centralisation of power, and thereby the privileges of the party. To do prefiguration, you have to eat humble pie.
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Furthermore, please, try to actually understand Marxism and not just make up whatever you want about it. Labor vouchers and credits aren’t money, money is made to be exchanged amond individuals. Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use. No “greater good” sacrifices necessary for you to live on the backs of those with the short end of the stick!
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Truly, you have no clue what Marxists actually advocate and you don’t understand Marxist states either, why are you bothering to reply? What’s your goal here?
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Democratic is not what the USSR was, and that style of thing is the only thing Marxists ever achieved. There’s also a difference between public ownership and state control, doubly so in non-democracies. Also you’re leaving out a model not really seen anywhere outside of liberal democracies and that’s foundations, that is, self-owning companies. Zeiss is a good example. Their purpose, according to statute, pretty much say “We do optics and funnel some money to the University of Jena”, no shareholder interest at all.
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Dude Latinos are the most vocal and active in the prefigurative space. There’s a reason we use a Portuguese term, “especifismo”, for a basic organisational principle. It’s the failure to think outside of the vanguardist box that makes Marxists not achieve anything but regression: Don’t dilute yourself to be better and more enlightened. You are not, you’re also a mere human. Anarchists understand we need to eat humble pie when talking to people, that we do not have all the answers, that all we have is a good compass and a toolbox that can help people to walk into that direction, on their own terms, at their own pace, organically, without coercion, which is crucial because the end goal does not contain any coercion.
Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use.
How do you eat if you don’t have a labour voucher? How is that “to everyone according to need”? It’s the same “bow to the bosses or starve” tyranny as capitalism without welfare state.
There’s a large difference between taking care of your personal living space and having communal services, and maintaining sewers and toxic waste is at a far worse level. Legitimately, you’re digging a deeper logical hole here.
You’ll have plenty of protective equipment. That’s not the issue. You’ll even have robots.
The issue, I think, is that you don’t know what it’s like to be part of a tribe, never have felt the solidarity and the motivation to contribute according to your abilities that comes along with it.
I thought you were an Anarchist, why are you requiring society to advance to full automation of dirty jobs before changing the system? What happens between now and that level of automation?
I absolutely know solidarity, I’ve worked in factories and industrial environments, alongside union members and leaders, and have contributed to my family and community. You’re making assumptions about me to try to dig yourself out of a logical hole. You want incredibly advanced technology and people to willingly take dirty jobs, but to not have any formalized administration beyond the informal structures that arise naturally. You want this now, but can’t describe how to get there beyond “solidarity.”
What you are describing is fantasy. You can’t describe how you’d get people to do the unquestionably horrible jobs that are nonetheless necessary without requiring them to be automated. The real issue is that you seem to be detatched from the broad working class and think everyone would magically do what’s needed without any administration or direction, this is not even in line with Anarchist thinking.
I suggest reading The Tyranny of Structurelessness, it’s the formalizing of structure that provides for actual democracy and collective aggreement, leaving it informal and based on respect leaves it unaccountable.
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.
No. I would rather have liberal democracy than regress to feudalism with a different coat of paint. Actionism is a trap, the system is begging you to oppose it in certain ways because doing so will only reinforce it. If you want to sit on the long end of the leaver, you might need to walk some distance.
Then get them safety equipment and robots.
You want things to be de-commodified, don’t you? “A stateless, classless, moneyless society”. You say currently sewerage workers are compelled by money, I take that to mean that you think they only do it because they need money because otherwise they’d starve.
But they would be supplied for in communism whether they do that job or not. So why would they still choose to do the work? For the greater good, of course. This isn’t something that’s unique to Anarchism. You’re trying to saw off a branch that you yourself are sitting on.
In a soviet-style state: Definitely not. You need freedom of association to be able to get people used to the necessary modes of organisation. The USSR did not tolerate such things, China does not tolerate such things. The reason is simple: They do understand that it is in direct contradiction to the centralisation of power, and thereby the privileges of the party. To do prefiguration, you have to eat humble pie.
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Furthermore, please, try to actually understand Marxism and not just make up whatever you want about it. Labor vouchers and credits aren’t money, money is made to be exchanged amond individuals. Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use. No “greater good” sacrifices necessary for you to live on the backs of those with the short end of the stick!
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Truly, you have no clue what Marxists actually advocate and you don’t understand Marxist states either, why are you bothering to reply? What’s your goal here?
Democratic is not what the USSR was, and that style of thing is the only thing Marxists ever achieved. There’s also a difference between public ownership and state control, doubly so in non-democracies. Also you’re leaving out a model not really seen anywhere outside of liberal democracies and that’s foundations, that is, self-owning companies. Zeiss is a good example. Their purpose, according to statute, pretty much say “We do optics and funnel some money to the University of Jena”, no shareholder interest at all.
Dude Latinos are the most vocal and active in the prefigurative space. There’s a reason we use a Portuguese term, “especifismo”, for a basic organisational principle. It’s the failure to think outside of the vanguardist box that makes Marxists not achieve anything but regression: Don’t dilute yourself to be better and more enlightened. You are not, you’re also a mere human. Anarchists understand we need to eat humble pie when talking to people, that we do not have all the answers, that all we have is a good compass and a toolbox that can help people to walk into that direction, on their own terms, at their own pace, organically, without coercion, which is crucial because the end goal does not contain any coercion.
How do you eat if you don’t have a labour voucher? How is that “to everyone according to need”? It’s the same “bow to the bosses or starve” tyranny as capitalism without welfare state.