• ooli@lemmy.world
    14714·
    8 个月前

    Being on the wrong side of history on the same topic 75 year apart

    • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
      172·
      8 个月前

      They are already. Antisemitic violence has been on the rise here since October 7. Antisemites see Israel do a thing and think “I know, let’s hurt some Jews”

          • sudo@programming.dev
            9·
            8 个月前

            Protesting Israel is considered antisemitism in Germany even if you’re Jewish. Real antisemitism is also on the rise but all pro-Palestinian protests are also lumped in. Anti-Zionist jews (Jewish Voice for Peace, etc) always on the forefront of these marches.

  • Johanno@feddit.de
    10017·
    8 个月前

    I as a german asked an expert on that topic. Chatgpt. According to chatGPT there is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So if for example you drop accidentally poison into their water because you mixed the Botox and sugar bottle in the water station then even if they all die it is not a genocide.

    And since chatgpt is infallable this is the only truth.

    • amzd@kbin.social
      358·
      8 个月前

      Except that basically all Israeli politicians have made statements saying they have genocidal intentions.

        • amzd@kbin.social
          10·
          8 个月前

          The charge document includes quotes of expression of genocidal intent by the following state officials:

          • Prime Minister of Israel
          • President of Israel
          • Israeli Minister of Defence
          • Israeli Minister for National Security
          • Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure
          • Israeli Minister of Finance
          • Israeli Minister of Heritage
          • Israeli Minister of Agriculture
          • Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security
            Committee
          • Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (‘COGAT’)
          • Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security
            Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister

          You can read the actual quotes in the application document in chapter D.

    • Raykin@lemmy.world
      251·
      8 个月前

      Upvoted but I wish you would have run your post through ChatGPT as well my friend. That was hard to read.

        • Johanno@feddit.de
          3·
          8 个月前

          I could use german grammar to set the commas, but then I would have probably 10 to many for English grammar. So I tend to use less in English.

        • KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.world
          32·
          8 个月前

          Comma rules in German are logical and follow set rules. When I asked my English teacher about comma rules in English, she said she’s not teaching them cause they’re too complicated.
          When I asked my English teacher during my foreign exchange year in the US, she basically said the same.

          • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            4·
            8 个月前

            As a native English speaker, I barely understand comma rules either. The only person I know that I would expect to always get commas right has a Master’s degree in English. The extremely oversimplified rule I was taught as a young child was to add a comma anywhere you would naturally pause while speaking. Doesn’t always work, but it works well enough.

        • verdigris@lemmy.ml
          16·
          8 个月前

          None of those sentences needed commas, they’re just not constructed very clearly.

          • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
            142·
            8 个月前

            I, as a German, asked an expert on that topic: ChatGPT. According to ChatGPT, there is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So, if for example you accidentally drop poison into their water because you mixed the botox and sugar bottle at the water station, then even if they all die it is not a genocide.

            And since ChatGPT is infallible, this is the only truth.

            —

            Six commas, colon, capitalization, word order, word choice, “infallible”. Infallible like my editing 🤓 & dunt u disagreeme

            PS: I speak zero languages (rounded), good job all who learn English and attempt to use it

            • verdigris@lemmy.ml
              3·
              8 个月前

              Okay, yes, those are all valid places to put commas, good job – except for the one after “So”, which actually decreases the legibility. It would be better to surround “for example” with commas.

              However, none of them are grammatically necessary. The original comment is totally fine and can be parsed unambiguously as-is. I would support the colon insertion above any of your commas.

              • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
                1·
                8 个月前

                Good point!

                Interesting, anywhere I can read about grammatically necessary vs. recommended yet unnecessary commas? (Perhaps on the first search result for that question heh)

                • verdigris@lemmy.ml
                  2·
                  8 个月前

                  This is a decent article, at least for the most part: I actually don’t like their examples for the “Preposition of Time” stuff at all, the versions with commas are just bad writing.

                  But basically it just comes down to whether the sentence/clause can be parsed unambiguously without the commas. There is no syntactical difference between “I as a German asked…” and “I, as a German, asked…”. It’s entirely a style choice.

    • sudo@programming.dev
      7·
      8 个月前

      I know your being sarcastic but I just want to point out that this is incorrect

      here is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet

      If you plan to cull a demographic by only 10% its still genocide according to the UN. This is the definition that South Africa’s case at the ICJ will be ruled under. Under this definition all ethnic cleansing requires genocide.

      • xx3rawr@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        2·
        8 个月前

        Fire Nation: “We never did the Air Nomad genocide. We didn’t intend to kill them all, we only intended to kill one guy”

    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
      148·
      8 个月前

      Yeah, genocide often requires intent. So I guess this could be more of a massacre than a genocide.

      But there’s quite a few different definitions, some are more lax.

      • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
        18·
        8 个月前

        Except for all the politicians, from shutzstaffel commanders to the (Hitler apologist) PM’s PR guy saying exactly this, using words like cexterminate’ ‘wipe from the earth’ ‘every last one’ and many individual storm troopers posting on their social media (in videos while doing war crimes), or even their ‘civilians’ frequently saying it

        Edit: nevermind. It wasnt a press guy; their pm.said it himself. Of course it did.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          38·
          8 个月前

          I really doubt their aim with this thing is to destroy all the Palestinians, but if you can provide those quotes that show that that’s their stated aim then I’d definitely consider this a genocide.

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
              22·
              8 个月前

              I was thinking the ones in the above reply but it doesn’t have to be very many at all if it’s the top people saying it. PM, DM, generals (that sort of people) saying their goals are extermination of Palestinians seems like it’d make the case pretty clear.

              I’m sorry if you see asking for sources as goalpost shifting but my goalpost was that there should be intent shown (because that’s a common genocide definition I think). It hasn’t changed. Asking for source is just basic thing on online discussions. It’s not a personal thing against you.

              • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
                11·
                8 个月前

                How many. Give me a number. IMO case is already so obvious you need special glasses to look directly at it and keep your eyes. So tell me how many high level and how many low level (probably nsfl) sources would work.

                If Theres a ‘might convince me’ range and a ‘this is so fucking obvious how could I have missed this?’ Range, feel free to include that.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
                  22·
                  8 个月前

                  Uhh, let’s say five? Is that alright?

                  I’m sorry I didn’t first see that you had edited the comment. I don’t know what would be a solid number for “this is obvious”. I guess it would depend on what is said by who. But I guess if you want some sort of hard number then let’s go with five top level comments or something? Would that work?

      • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
        42·
        8 个月前

        Teeeeensy nitpick: there are two definitions of genocide that have ever mattered. Two. Not many. Two.

        Lemkins original, much much broader, definition, And the one you’re familiar with, adopted by the UN because like everyone on the permanent security council thing had an interest in the definition being a little more narrow. Under which the way the Palestinian people are being exterminated absolutely still counts.

        Interestingly, by lemkin’s broader definition, making the shutzstaffel stop killing Palestinians might constitute a genocide of the kapostanis; it would be destroying every trace of their culture, and the means of its reproduction.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          21·
          8 个月前

          I didn’t say there were plenty “that have ever mattered” so it doesn’t seem like a nitpick towards me.

          • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
            13·
            8 个月前

            I’m sure your high school had its own? Doesn’t count.

            There are plenty of abbreviations. But those aren’t separate content; just condensed versions.

            There are two.

              • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
                14·
                8 个月前

                If Theres ever a genocide against a group I know includes you,I’m going to laugh at it so hard.

                Which is probably going to get me kicked out of a lot of ‘stop the genocide’ stuff.

                • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
                  42·
                  8 个月前

                  If Theres ever a genocide against a group I know includes you,I’m going to laugh at it so hard.

                  Weird.

    • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.worldEnglish
      45·
      8 个月前

      To meet the legal definition of genocide, you also have to have the intent to destroy a particular group of people. So, legally speaking, your example isn’t genocide according to any source.

      I don’t know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started, but if it doesn’t involve an intent to destroy Palestinians specifically, I guess I could see how GPT’s take is valid. Like, the war in Ukraine is egregious too, but that by itself doesn’t make it a genocide.

      • DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe
        161·
        8 个月前

        Deliberate displacement of particular ethnic or religious groups is also recognized as genocide, in particular because it’s often a pretext. ChatGPT is wrong, and needs to read the UN definition.

      • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
        1·
        8 个月前

        I don’t know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started

        Religion

      • letsgo@lemm.ee
        22·
        8 个月前

        How it started: the Ottomans sided with the Nazis, so when they lost, the Ottomans also lost their land and the Allies got it, following the usual war rule where the winner wins the land. Dividing up the land is where the British Mandate for Palestine came from, under which we gave 2/3 of the land to the Arabs (Transjordan) and 1/3 of the land to Israel. But the Arabs refused to accept this and started the first of a series of wars against Israel. The Arabs, now also partially known as Palestinians, have continually refused to accept any peace deal, starting wars whenever possible and so far losing every one of them. Israel has repeatedly accepted peace deals, even at the cost of land, but it only works if both sides agree, which they don’t: the only deal the Arabs want is all the land and no Israel, which also means no Jews (proof: look at the Jewish communities within existing Arab states (TLDR: non-existent or shrinking)), which means the Arabs are hellbent on a genocide of all the Jews, and are determined to achieve that or die trying.

  • volvoxvsmarla @lemm.ee
    744·
    8 个月前

    (Preface: I am team genocide. I also live in Germany. Germany’s politics are a disgrace, but I digress.)

    What annoys me about this is that this discussion gets so much media attention and focus, while it doesn’t matter in this very moment. I understand that there are implications if it will be defined as a genocide. But right now people are being killed every day en masse and they frankly give a crap about whether they died in a mass murder or terrorist attack or a genocide.

    It reminds me of the early days of the Ukraine war when everyone was so obsessed with comparing Putin to Hitler (Putler is still a popular term) and the discussion was high on whether Putins actions amount to fascism or not, with a lot of internet laymen but also experts on that subject chiming in. When I asked a half Russian, half Ukrainian what their opinion was, their reply was something like “who the fuck cares? Call it a chicken pea pie, nobody cares, people are being killed, I don’t give a crap. Somewhen in the future people will be looking back and asking the same question, but it doesn’t matter right now.” And it stuck with me.

    If I understand correctly, the ICJ will rule again on the case in a couple of years (?), which obviously isn’t relevant right now. It seems like the ruling would have an aftermath in retrospect but even if they ruled it were a genocide today, nothing much would change directly - but please correct me if I am wrong here.

    But what definitely doesn’t matter is what we think. What matters is what is happening. And it doesn’t need a name to be evil and detrimental.

    • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
      762·
      8 个月前

      Germany has supplied 30% of Israel s weapons, and has continued to do so during this ongoing genocide. If Germany or the US were to acknowledge the ongoing genocide, they’d have to stop supplying those arms immediately, hence stopping the annihilation of Gaza. So it’s of immense importance to keep repeating what most of the world already acknowledges: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes. History will not judge Germany kindly, but I guess that’s not exactly a new thing for a veteran perpetrator of genocide.

      • volvoxvsmarla @lemm.ee
        72·
        8 个月前

        Ok, this sounds valid. But what would oblige them to stop them from delivering weapons if the ICJ rules it is a genocide? Is there any legal obligation, can they denounce the ruling?

        If you mean acknowledge in a sense of civilian/political acknowledgement, then my issue with it is that it shouldn’t be necessary to be this anal about some definition. It’s splitting hairs on cut off heads. Supporting mass murder is wrong in the context of genocide as well as outside of it. It shouldn’t be necessary to convince the governments that it is a genocide to convince them to stop supplying weapons.

        • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
          10·
          8 个月前

          The US and Germany are both signatories of the UN arms trade treaty . This is article 6 (3):

          “A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if it has knowledge at the time of authorization that the arms or items would be used in the commission of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements to which it is a Party”

          Mass murder is the name of the game in war. So arming other militaries is always in support of mass murder. But in the eyes of international law some mass murder is acceptable as part of war. Genocide and the other crimes recounted above however, have been deemed to cross the threshold of acceptability in international law, and therefore are meant to stop the transfer of arms immediately. If the US and Germany were to acknowledge that these crimes are being perpetrated by Israel, they’d have to stop transferring arms. Mass murder in itself is admittedly wrong, but that alone is not sufficient to trigger a halt to arms exports. Therefore, it is of great importance to keep repeating: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes.

          • volvoxvsmarla @lemm.ee
            2·
            8 个月前

            Thank you, that is a very helpful insight!

            crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements

            Why do we then seem to hear only about the genocide controversy? Wouldn’t it be easier/faster/more obvious to argue for all the other crimes mentioned above?

            • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
              1·
              8 个月前

              That’s because the crime of genocide tends to contain within it multiple instances of crimes against humanity, breaches of the Geneva convention, attacks against civilians and so on. It’s basically the ultimate crime containing all the other crimes within it. And the highest authority on international law in the World, the ICJ, has said that it is plausible that what Israel is doing amounts to a genocide. It really is very clear and simple, if you’re willing to see things as they are.

          • HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de
            1·
            8 个月前

            What exactly are people referring to when the label this a genocide? Like, what line was crossed where this changed from defending against terrorists to commiting a genocide, in your opinion? (I’m genuienly curious, couldnt really find anything specific on this)

      • 100_kg_90_de_belin @feddit.it
        1·
        8 个月前

        American companies allegedly kept on working with Nazi Germany after the US entered the war. Therefore, unless Israel gets on the UN stand and says, “Yes, we’re committing genocide and y’all’s are next” no one will let non-white deaths affect the bottom line.

    • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
      34·
      8 个月前

      ”i am team genocide"

      -volvoxvsmarla

      I dunno, can we trust them? Agree tho; people are dying and it needs to stop no matter what we call it, even if there were no larger implications; its fucking pointless and needs to stop.

      • desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        10·
        8 个月前

        If I randomly kill all humans it would be genocide. I absolutely hate the common usage of the word, but killing all humans definitely would be genocide.

      • yetAnotherUser@feddit.de
        2·
        8 个月前

        Killing 50% of any one people is genocide, right? For example, the Nazis killed up to 50% of European Romani people and it is classified as a genocide.

        Let’s assume killing 50% of n peoples is genocide.

        Since killing 50% of n peoples is genocide, killing 50% of n+1 peoples must also be genocide, else a number N would exist such that killing 50% of N - 1 peoples is genocide but killing 50% of N peoples is not. The existence of such a number N would be quite contradictory, as it would imply one could undo genocide by killing more people. Additionally, if one were to first kill 50% of N - 1 people and then kill 50% of one more people some time later, both events would be classified as genocide, since killing 50% of one people is assumed to be genocide.

        Therefore, Thanos did in fact commit genocide.

    • jkrtn@lemmy.ml
      343·
      8 个月前

      Israel: [Murdering journalists and foreign aid workers] see? It’s not only Palestinians, it’s random.

  • barsoap@lemm.ee
    6415·
    8 个月前

    Genocide, as in the legal definition, requires intent. As far as I see it Germany is not even trying to deny anything Israel did or does, or argue evidence in any other way, all the government is basically doing is saying “Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity”. Not in that many words, but to that effect.

    • pyr0ball@lemmy.world
      22·
      8 个月前

      And a sane person/nation would willingly engage in genocide? Insanity doesn’t negate intent, only ones ability to distinguish reality or prevent themselves from carrying out actions they know to be immoral. Inb4 India, China, the USA, and Russia of course but you take my point?

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
        83·
        8 个月前

        With individuals, criminal insanity means that you can’t be held accountable on account of not being able to tell good from wrong: Lacking that ability, you cannot have an intent to do wrong. It’s also not a get out of jail free card, it’s quite often a get locked into a closed institution for an indeterminate amount of time card, until the doctors decide that you’re not a danger to yourself or society. Being judged criminally insane can turn a five-year sentence into de facto life.

        And it’s not like I personally agree that the notion is really applicable to a people, or that it should be considered when it comes to the genocide convention, but damn someone has to be their defence lawyer – they certainly aren’t capable of defending themselves, pretty much everything they say just makes people more mad, justifiably so. Given Germany’s history don’t blame us for taking on that role.

      • HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de
        1·
        8 个月前

        The thing about insanity is made up by the person eho posted that comment. What they actually say is that Israel’s intent is to defend themselves against the armed attacks by the Hamas, so self-defense, and not to commit a genocide.

        • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
          3·
          8 个月前

          That’s such a weird take. I mean you’re right, that is exactly the argument, but it doesn’t hold any water. To defend against Hamas attacks, Israel would need a huge border fence (check), a vastly superior military (check), constant surveillance on Gaza (check), Iron Dome (check), and even morally questionable methods like full control over the Palestinian population registry to track criminals (check). The fact that they had all those and still failed self-defense just adds to the argument that killing tens of thousands of civilians and destroying the majority of civilian infrastructure (while making the vast majority unusable) and completely debilitating the medical infrastructure and blocking humanitarian aid (also via criminal methods) and

          Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

          is actually genocide.

    • HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de
      6·
      8 个月前

      Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity". Not in that many words, but to that effect.

      That’s completely made up, either by you or by another person. What they actually say is that Israel’s intent is to defend against the armed attacks of the Hamas, not to commit a genocide.

      More like: “Your honor, our client is just trying to defend themselves, they are not doing this to commit a genocide”

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
        21·
        8 个月前

        Mere defensive intent does not match up with the evidence unless you assume psychosis, and Germany very much is not denying the evidence.

        That’s why I said “in not that many words”.

        • HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de
          11·
          8 个月前

          Germany provided Israel with anti-tank weapons and also training muniton. That’s it (according to official statements). Doesn’t sound like something you could commit a genocide with to me…

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
        11·
        8 个月前

        That’s a spark, not the kindling, much less the oil we poured on top of it. Without that, the “holocaust oil”, Israelis would probably be like French levels of patriotic today: Occasionally annoying but harmless and also mostly charming.

  • Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.worldOP
    10·
    8 个月前

    In hindsight this should have been posted in the political meme section not here.

    My apologies, I’m new to lemmy. Thank you for your patience yall, I’ll do better.

  • Queen HawlSera@lemm.eeEnglish
    2517·
    8 个月前

    Germany, are you going to be responsible for EVERY FUCKING World War you humans fight in!?! Liiiike feck.

    • evranch@lemmy.ca
      191·
      8 个月前

      I don’t get this WW3 talk that seems to only be here on Lemmy. Like, does anyone actually expect any countries with significant global influence to line up behind Hamas?

      The closest I can think of is Iran, and they’re a regional power at best, and they prefer to work behind the scenes.

      No, this will be a nasty little “tempest in a teacup” as always, with lots of onlookers wagging fingers but doing nothing. This is what all neighbouring nations are already doing - in fact they love the fact that Israel’s disproportionate response is damaging their reputation. They’re more than happy to stand by and watch, as they’re the ones who set Gaza up as a punching bag in the first place.

      Ukraine is far more likely to evolve into a global conflict, especially with Ukraine’s position weakening and Poland chomping at the bit to jump in.

      • doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml
        34·
        8 个月前

        Like, does anyone actually expect any countries with significant global influence to line up behind *Hamas*?

        Do you seriously think WWI happened because countries “lined up behind” Gavrilo Princip?

      • Queen HawlSera@lemm.eeEnglish
        12·
        8 个月前

        Look if Germany isn’t evil, is it even a World War sequel. Come on, the writers need to stay consistent

    • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
      185·
      8 个月前

      Is all champaigne from france?

      If Germany’s not on the wrong(er) side, its just a sparkling global conflict.