I’d genuinely be interested to know how many human beings need to work a 40-hour week in order to produce and distribute enough food, medicine, clothing, shelter and education for all 8.2 billion humans, and how many of the rest of us are really just building follies purely just to keep everyone busy.
If tech billionaires insist on continuing to make jobs like “taxi driver” and “checkout operator” obsolete via automation while also refusing to share the proceeds of that automation with the humans whose expertise was used to train said AI and then got replaced, then the question of “exactly how pointless do the new jobs (I mean, ‘influencer’? Really?) need to be before we accept that money has ceased to make sense as the way we incentivize people to not have more kids than the global industrial output can sustain?”.
It depends a bit on what we need strictly necessary to keep people alive and happy. Also we probably only need people to work 6 hours days iirc, it would be the same efficiency.
Let’s assume there is no money and everybody gets what they need, like when we lived in smaller self sustainable communities.
We would need transport for a lot of things, we also need people to repair that infrastructure.
At the same time, we also need more people to do sports to keep healthy, so you need to be able to do that. You don’t strictly need a lot for that, but still.
We also need things like swimming pools on top of normal education to teach people how to swim (more important in some countries than others)
Don’t we also need some way for people to have hobbies etc to keep everybody sane and happy?
I like the thought process of how many people have essential jobs, this also started for me during covid when the Dutch government didn’t make concrete lists of what was essential.
I also don’t believe that we need more people on the planet, we need less people to help with climate change. Yes we will have issues with the ageing of people, but automation should help fill the gab with when those people retire.
Since 1970, productivity has increased by 86%. That suggests the output of a 40 hour work week in 1970 could be done in under 22 hours with the same inflation-adjusted wage. That’s not even considering the productivity increases caused by industrialization in the century before 1970 (though the 40 hour work week in the US wasn’t set until 1938).
Admittedly, this is a bit of a naive way of looking at the numbers, but it gives ballpark ideas of how far we might be able to go.
Note that real (inflation-adjusted) pay has only increased 32% in the same time period. This, BTW, is a much more robust argument than saying real pay has flatlined since 1970. Real wages are, in fact, up during that time period, but it’s possible the numbers will shift again over time and return to being flat or down. The pay-productivity gap, however, has only been widening with time and isn’t going to be fixed without drastic changes in policy.
You can have 80% of the population unemployed given the 20% are elite workers using automation and nearly perfect/efficient automated systems (i.e: Not farming by hand trowel, but one person controlling 10 combines/tractors simultaneously like they’re playing Factorio or Farming Simulator)
I agree with your point, but I’ll also say fuck the bare minimum. Any business that cannot afford to pay a living wage has no business being in business. Poverty is exploitation.
I get what you are saying, but I disagree to some extent, at least from my NL point of view
Almost all small/local restaurants would have gone bankrupt during Covid if the government hasn’t stepped in.
A lot of theatres would go bankrupt if government subsidies would stop.
And there are more companies that are subsidized by the government to help them keep afloat, either temporary or structural like in the theatre example.
Personally, I believe we should stride for a minimum income, not a minimum wage. Because the minimum wage does nothing for you if you wan’t work (anymore). Currently in a NL (and other countries) you get a fixed percentage of your last wage if you get sick for longer than x years. I know people who live under the minimum income because of this and can never get anywhere in life because they get 70% from only working 3 hours a week before they got to be confirmed sick. A minimum wage increase does nothing a minimum (or universal basic income) does work.
Almost all small local shops and restaurants did go bankrupt during Covid. The bailouts went disproportionately to the oligarchy. Some small businesses benefitted, but it would have been far more effective to bail out individuals.
But I agree that a negative tax or UBI would be great, too, as long as it was tied to the cost of living and paid for by business taxes. It would effectively subsidize every business, creating a minimum wage paid to every person regardless of whether they work or not.
If you give your whole life of working hours to a business, the compensation should be a bare minimum of all of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.
Period.
Ironically, every level of Maslow’s Hierarchy is behind a paywall.
Self-actualization is only a luxury for the rich.
I’d genuinely be interested to know how many human beings need to work a 40-hour week in order to produce and distribute enough food, medicine, clothing, shelter and education for all 8.2 billion humans, and how many of the rest of us are really just building follies purely just to keep everyone busy.
If tech billionaires insist on continuing to make jobs like “taxi driver” and “checkout operator” obsolete via automation while also refusing to share the proceeds of that automation with the humans whose expertise was used to train said AI and then got replaced, then the question of “exactly how pointless do the new jobs (I mean, ‘influencer’? Really?) need to be before we accept that money has ceased to make sense as the way we incentivize people to not have more kids than the global industrial output can sustain?”.
It depends a bit on what we need strictly necessary to keep people alive and happy. Also we probably only need people to work 6 hours days iirc, it would be the same efficiency. Let’s assume there is no money and everybody gets what they need, like when we lived in smaller self sustainable communities.
We would need transport for a lot of things, we also need people to repair that infrastructure. At the same time, we also need more people to do sports to keep healthy, so you need to be able to do that. You don’t strictly need a lot for that, but still. We also need things like swimming pools on top of normal education to teach people how to swim (more important in some countries than others)
Don’t we also need some way for people to have hobbies etc to keep everybody sane and happy?
I like the thought process of how many people have essential jobs, this also started for me during covid when the Dutch government didn’t make concrete lists of what was essential.
I also don’t believe that we need more people on the planet, we need less people to help with climate change. Yes we will have issues with the ageing of people, but automation should help fill the gab with when those people retire.
Since 1970, productivity has increased by 86%. That suggests the output of a 40 hour work week in 1970 could be done in under 22 hours with the same inflation-adjusted wage. That’s not even considering the productivity increases caused by industrialization in the century before 1970 (though the 40 hour work week in the US wasn’t set until 1938).
Admittedly, this is a bit of a naive way of looking at the numbers, but it gives ballpark ideas of how far we might be able to go.
Note that real (inflation-adjusted) pay has only increased 32% in the same time period. This, BTW, is a much more robust argument than saying real pay has flatlined since 1970. Real wages are, in fact, up during that time period, but it’s possible the numbers will shift again over time and return to being flat or down. The pay-productivity gap, however, has only been widening with time and isn’t going to be fixed without drastic changes in policy.
It’s about 20%, according to Ricardian Theorems.
You can have 80% of the population unemployed given the 20% are elite workers using automation and nearly perfect/efficient automated systems (i.e: Not farming by hand trowel, but one person controlling 10 combines/tractors simultaneously like they’re playing Factorio or Farming Simulator)
You’re thinking of garden hermits who often hang around follies.
And yes, most clerical offices and upper management dudes have them buzzing around them in swarms looking busy.
I agree with your point, but I’ll also say fuck the bare minimum. Any business that cannot afford to pay a living wage has no business being in business. Poverty is exploitation.
I get what you are saying, but I disagree to some extent, at least from my NL point of view
Almost all small/local restaurants would have gone bankrupt during Covid if the government hasn’t stepped in. A lot of theatres would go bankrupt if government subsidies would stop. And there are more companies that are subsidized by the government to help them keep afloat, either temporary or structural like in the theatre example.
Personally, I believe we should stride for a minimum income, not a minimum wage. Because the minimum wage does nothing for you if you wan’t work (anymore). Currently in a NL (and other countries) you get a fixed percentage of your last wage if you get sick for longer than x years. I know people who live under the minimum income because of this and can never get anywhere in life because they get 70% from only working 3 hours a week before they got to be confirmed sick. A minimum wage increase does nothing a minimum (or universal basic income) does work.
Almost all small local shops and restaurants did go bankrupt during Covid. The bailouts went disproportionately to the oligarchy. Some small businesses benefitted, but it would have been far more effective to bail out individuals.
But I agree that a negative tax or UBI would be great, too, as long as it was tied to the cost of living and paid for by business taxes. It would effectively subsidize every business, creating a minimum wage paid to every person regardless of whether they work or not.
Not sure I would want my company involved the top three. Bottom two for sure tho!
But having the time and resources to pursue all of them should fit into any lifestyle package.
100%