Yeah and the reason young men are finding it hard to have real life friends and end up on uncle forums is because we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
Ontop of this the constant algorithms that push specific topics to people over and over due to it keeping them on the platform and therefore generates income.
It does feel like 75% of this problem could be fixed by stopping corporate greed and fixing our local communities as whole.
I went to a Humans vs. Zombies Nerf war at a university campus a few weeks ago. A couple hundred people, real strong mix of men, women, and others. A healthy mingling of people who were clearly gun hobby adjacent and a lot of openly queer folk, which I think is really quite encouraging to see. Everyone had a good time, no issues the whole day. Good vibes all around.
At the end of the event, the student organizers tearfully announced that the school administration had decided to ban all blaster events on campus going forward. Fuck us all for trying to have a healthy good time, right?
we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
And also shut down by female supremacist activists.
A gym started up last decade in my town, as a men’s only gym. A place for guys to come and exercise without distraction.
It got sued within the year by a woman who tried to join. It went to court. Company ran out of money before the court case closed, went bankrupt and had to close.
The case proceeded to completion, the woman won, and all the women’s groups in the area crowed about their phyrric “victory” over misogyny.
There are three women’s-only gyms in town, six in the greater geographical region. None of these have ever had men demanding to become members, because those men would be nailed to the wall for being misogynists.
This happens eventually to all “men’s spaces” that exist long enough: they are forced to no longer be “men’s spaces”, because being a “man’s space” is misogynistic.
Women’s spaces? Totally fine. Not misandric in the least.
See how “equality” works?
Edit:
Pick any third space where women’s only spaces exist, and you will also find men’s-only spaces that were sued either into nonexistence or into opening their doors for women, which caused it to no longer be a “men’s space”. From boxing clubs to smoking clubs to the f**king Boy Scouts of America, men’s spaces everywhere are being eliminated in the drive to “combat misogyny”.
Meanwhile, the president of the Girl Scouts privately admitted (can’t recall exactly when, but it was either during or shortly after the Boy Scout’s trial) that she would rather shut down the entire org than allow a single boy to join. And she was lauded for that position.
“Rules for thee, but not for me.”
That isn’t “equality” in the least. That’s blatant gender bigotry. And that is what the “black pill” is built upon - actual real-world evidence.
You want the black pill to stop existing? QUIT SHOVELLING THEM COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF AMMUNITION, FFS.
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men lol. In fact it might be better if they aren’t given the specific topic of people we are talking about in this thread. In general an increase in community locations is a good thing, but it seemed especially so for people in the intel rabbit hole. Somewhere casual they can come out of their shells and meet people in the real world!
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer. After all, suppose a city makes a nice park across the street from an incel’s apartment. Maybe they’ll leave their house and go there… but do you really think this socially awkward weirdo is gonna start striking up conversations with other people there? Do you think they are going to engage with others who say hello to them, if others interact with them at all? Yes, a lack of third spaces is a problem, but I don’t think it is the lynchpin. We are also less likely to visit third places when they do exist these days due to digital distractions. People seem to be more insular, less likely to introduce themselves to strangers and less likely to be open to strangers introducing themselves. And significant social anxiety and lack of social skills is seldom overcome simply by having a neutral environment.
What we really need is grassroots social movements dedicated to being friendly to strangers, reducing digital distractions, reaching out to men who feel left behind, and informing parents about the importance of proactively ensuring that their children have healthy social and emotional lives.
Honestly, it’s whether you treat each human life as important or you don’t. I don’t think those people need to be changed, they just need to look at real life instead of running away from it. But I’ll say, working as a clerk in McDonalds doesn’t sound like the greatest achievement of all time.
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer.
And I would agree. Men in a group setting of only men will typically behave entirely differently than if you drop even a single woman into their midst. A man who is only among men will open up and behave and accept constructive criticism in ways that he will never do with even a single woman present. The change in behaviour a man exhibits in the presence of a woman is instinctual and unconscious, and is unable to be controlled or even moderated by the vast majority of men out there.
Having male-only spaces is absolutely essential to allowing men to behave as they would without the unconscious/instinctual pressure they would be subject to with a woman present.
Too bad these kinds of places are “misogynistic” in ways that women-only spaces are “not misandric”. The gender bigotry and hypocrisy in this dichotomy is blindingly overwhelming.
Probably why gaming bros became so popular. A time to hang out with “da boys” because there aren’t any other places you can do that without spending money.
I’m not saying you are categorically wrong about the benefits of male-only spaces. But I will say that the attitude and language with which you are approaching the issue is not doing you any favors.
Men don’t need men-only spaces. That only deepens the rift between sexes. It’s absolutely not needed. You can completely respect the difference in sexes and that difference is welcomed, all other matters are bullshit from society. What humanity needs is respectful spaces for all sexes, not division.
The easiest way to identify gender bigotry is to flip the genders in contention. If there is identical interpretations, there is no bigotry in play. If there is a massive difference in how they are each interpreted, there is a massive amount of gender bigotry in play.
“Women don’t need women-only spaces.”
That sounds totally different, doesn’t it? Almost… threatening.
Now apply this to all the women-only spaces out there, like women-only gyms. Why should women-only gyms get to exist while men-only gyms get sued out of existence? Gender bigotry.
This cascades down through the whole of society - DV shelters, shelters for single parents, initiatives of all kinds for the vulnerable and precarious, which for nearly all of them focus far more heavily, or even exclusively, on women even when they are in the extreme minority.
So let’s strive for true equality - equal opportunities, services, and support for all. And if women have their own spaces, why not men? After all, that is what “equality” means.
Except that seems to generate unfathomable rage from the female supremacists when it actually gets suggested, who do everything in their power to shame such ideas of true equality into oblivion.
I have to say, I personally have been actively seeking male-only spaces for the past year. This has nothing to do with disliking women. I like women a lot and have a lot of female friends I care deeply about. The reason comes from my end - I have things that are difficult for me to talk about that I would like to discuss in a supportive environment with other people who understand and accept my lived experience. While I can and do open up to my female friends about some things, for other things I am simply more comfortable talking to other guys - where “more comfortable” means “I might talk about it *at
all.”
Unfortunately, most male-only spaces put up significant barriers to entry, because otherwise they become magnets for right wing lunatics or the chronically depressed.
I feel like that’s more a problem of whatever specific gyms you are going to. Ones I go to have usually have signs up saying no cameras allowing people to just focus on their own workout. Regardless, the point is that if you want to help people overcome their “the world is against me, no woman wants me” mind set of an incel, there should be more spaces that let people interact with others outside of online algorithm controlled or bot account flooded social media platforms. Places to meet and converse with real people of any gender. All of a sudden they will probably realise that most people are actually nice. Most people don’t generally go around trying to make people feel shit or uncomfortable.
Imagine being the guy whose primary excuse to go to the gym is to “ogle hot women”.
Yeah, you’re a real progressive guy.
The sign of a man with experience is when he’s become sick of women’s shit.
The woman I am married to - which BTW, makes me wholly ineligible for MGTOW status - is one of the few women out there I actually want to spend time with beyond social niceties. I have zero interest in the vast majority of women out there - regardless of “hotness” - because I have come to know how women in general act and react; what their motivations are and how they approach life in general. And that just makes me wholly uninterested in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I will absolutely be polite and civil to women. I have absolutely no problem socializing with them and making them feel appreciated and valued as I would any human being, regardless of gender (or fractional thereof). I just have no interest in them as women.
lol I would like a male version of curves, I get anxiety and think ppl think im looking at them when I zone out, its never been an issue, like they usually just smile at me and I realize it looks like im staring at them looking away, still dont like having anxiety over it. Why is it insane to think men could be more comfortable in a mens only gym like women are at womens only. The gym in my hometown before they added cardio machines was peak.
I think the whole gym influencer stuff thing becoming popular made it worse forsure, wasnt as axious til those vids of woman recording men walking past and posting them online and my gym became a maze of tripods with everyone taking 10 hours to do their sets and check their footage. (The men are the issue here too)
But also gyms have nothing to do with third spaces, ppl use them like that but I think its out of neccesity.
If you want to run a public business, the social contract has always been that you serve the public.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves” only enables the incel type behaviors. As well as belittling men. Because as a cis man, I certainly have no issue respecting a woman. Or any issue focusing on other things when they’re around. If men and boys were more familiar with interacting with women, they likely wouldn’t be bitter incels. Unable to understand why no woman wants to be around them. Like, literally.
And if you had any intellectual integrity, you would provide your argument on how my example wasn’t a stellar example of societal anti-male gender bigotry.
Well, the world isn’t supposed to be fair. Some random person’s actions don’t change the existence of incels. So, why would it matter? Women’s only spaces are out there because society determined so and that’s all there is to it. It isn’t anyone’s fault. Whether you want to do something about it, do it the intelligent way.
Ah, a classic strategy of the intellectually bankrupt - an ad hominem. attacking the man instead of the argument.
Some of us tend to be obsessed with facts and evidence, and are not easily affected by the public shaming that arises from an intellectually bankrupt thought-terminating response. Try your strategy on someone else.
Facts and evidence are not on your side no matter how much you scream that they are… based on your singular anecdote, no less Classic brainwashed fascist incel vibes there.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
This is only true in a vague, wishy-washy metaphysical sense. Fine, whatever, you have intrinsic value. If that warms your cockles, more power to you.
But the extent to which other people value you is entirely dependent on what you can provide to them. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Do you think that in a socialist society, a person who refused to do any work at all - not because they couldn’t, but just because they didn’t feel like it - would be shown general love and acceptance and kindness? No! They would, at best, be tolerated and given the bare necessities to survive - but they wouldnt be celebrated. Do you think primitive tribes love and support the lazy asshole who never contributes and just expects food to be brought to them every day? No, of course not! They kick that motherfucker out when they are dead weight.
And what you “provide” for other people doesn’t have to make money. But it does need to provide some kind of value. Do you have a beautiful smile that brightens peoples’ day? Are you tall enough to reach things on the top shelf, and willing to reach them for short people? Can you make hilarious dolphin sounds at parties? Are you a supportive friend who listens to others’ struggles when they are down? No? You just sit your ass on the couch all day and watch TV and interact with basically no one? Then why the fuck would you expect anyone to value you, when you provide no value to them? This is not a capitalism problem. This is a human solution. Dead weight gets dropped. Period. Always has, always will.
I agree. People need to learn to get away from far-fetched fantasy if that doesn’t translate to real value. I know it’s harsh, but everyone needs to deal with reality.
No, they weren’t. Class was much more important. There was no class climbing prospect. You either were born into a having family or you weren’t. Even amongst peasants, men weren’t suppose to “have a career” or a prospect. You inherited whatever your family had.
There was expectations of performance, of course. There was internal competition, but no peasant would ever realistically transform into nobility via merit or otherwise.
Those ignorant of history forget that our current worldviews and values weren’t always universal. The notion of a linear career, of having prospects, to be successful, to grow from a low place and climb the social and financial rings, accumulating wealth enough to retire early then leave a lofty inheritance to children and grandchildren. All that is modern construction that is not present before the 19th century. Furthermore, the expectations that all the other poor people are lazy scumbags, but my poverty is merely a circumstantial setback is a very American exceptialism view.
So you are saying that a father of a girl at any class level in a feudal society cared not about the ability of a mate to provide for his daughter or grandchildren?
That kings and earls didn’t bring wealth and power into matchmaking calculations?
In general, no. It was a business transaction and whoever provided an appropriate dowry would get the girl. No matter their future prospects. The family didn’t care much for whatever happened to the girl afterwards. High class and nobility might’ve care for prestige and title inheritance. But otherwise it didn’t matter. We got so many historical novels with the plot point of a girl marrying a destitute nobleman and being abandoned by her original family that it is sort of a trope in the romantic period. Girl being sold by bankrupt father to save on food with one less mouth to feed was also a trope. You have to remember women weren’t valued much beyond their capacity of bearing children. They were little more than cattle for most western feudal societies.
Capitalism probably doesn’t help, but I don’t think male alienation is really unique to this time or culture. Any time you have social hierarchy the lowest tier ends up eating a lot of shit. Our social hierarchy is very capitalist but you’d easily find the same kind of thing even in hunter gatherer societies. Socialism has plenty of hierarchy baked in as well. Anarchists are about the only ones who actively attempt to “flatten” society.
“Career prospects” in this case means that men want to feel like they’re of use to society. The issue is only tied to capitalism in the sense that the current capitalist environment doesn’t offer many of them meaningful work. I’m not sure what alternative to capitalism you imagine would solve that problem - without also giving men those same career prospects they’re currently lacking. Taking care of and providing for the tribe is what we’re hardcoded to get meaning from.
You don’t need someone to create jobs for you, people just need to do useful stuff and it will get attention. As long as work is organized, it doesn’t make sense someone would “create” a job for you. It’s all about History. These neo-aristocrats have a hold on capital, so they decide what to do.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t care about work with this, just that no jobs are “created”.
I’ve seen so many men just suck at doing adult stuff in my life and career. It’s not a problem of men not having the opportunity to show value, it’s more that they expect to have value without providing anything. So if you feel useless, it’s more of a you problem that current media allows you to blame other people for.
Capitalism is causing some of these issues. The core issue is men expecting the world to hand them a sense of value.
Sometimes it helps to remember that a lot of people are actually hopelessly stupid. And this isn’t like some elitist ivory tower commentary - there is a good percentage of the population which struggles with basic problem solving, knowledge synthesis, critical thought, etc.
“Advanced capitalism” is sometimes literally called a “knowledge economy” and this has really properly fucked people who could have previously earned a fine living doing mindless physical work. And again, this isn’t like some normative statement - for most of human history this equation has been inverted, and intellectual opportunities were scarce. Honestly, part of the problem is probably very specifically that we have hit that inflection point, which is cultivating a new form of alienation for those who are on that lower cognitive tail, who both lack opportunities and are also made to feel inferior for it.
SOOOOOOOO……we can all admit now that socioeconomics is real. Cuz I’d hate to think anyone would think this is a new concept and would affect only one group recently and they still sit there and think they are unique to this ’phenomenon’ whilst it’s been an effect for generations already and has gone ignored for about as long. And they’ve had to just ‘deal with it’.
Cuz I’m real sick of seeing this argument like it’s not been around and affecting whole swaths of groups of people for centuries.
You can admit there’s been slaves and it’s affected their families poorly? Let’s start with that. And it’s still happening. And it’s still being brushed under the carpet and there’s still flagrant racism targeting entire communities to ignore their prospects.
For generations.
Cuz that all happened way before incels in the burbs came about.
Sooooo… when are we gonna admit that men’s mental health is unfortunaly heavily tied to their career prospects?
No, not yet?
Okay I’ll keep waiting.
sigh
…
It’s capitalism.
Men’s well being wouldn’t be tied to career prospects if it weren’t for the rat race we are all brainwashed into since birth that is capitalism.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
Yeah and the reason young men are finding it hard to have real life friends and end up on uncle forums is because we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
Ontop of this the constant algorithms that push specific topics to people over and over due to it keeping them on the platform and therefore generates income.
It does feel like 75% of this problem could be fixed by stopping corporate greed and fixing our local communities as whole.
I went to a Humans vs. Zombies Nerf war at a university campus a few weeks ago. A couple hundred people, real strong mix of men, women, and others. A healthy mingling of people who were clearly gun hobby adjacent and a lot of openly queer folk, which I think is really quite encouraging to see. Everyone had a good time, no issues the whole day. Good vibes all around.
At the end of the event, the student organizers tearfully announced that the school administration had decided to ban all blaster events on campus going forward. Fuck us all for trying to have a healthy good time, right?
And also shut down by female supremacist activists.
A gym started up last decade in my town, as a men’s only gym. A place for guys to come and exercise without distraction.
It got sued within the year by a woman who tried to join. It went to court. Company ran out of money before the court case closed, went bankrupt and had to close.
The case proceeded to completion, the woman won, and all the women’s groups in the area crowed about their phyrric “victory” over misogyny.
There are three women’s-only gyms in town, six in the greater geographical region. None of these have ever had men demanding to become members, because those men would be nailed to the wall for being misogynists.
This happens eventually to all “men’s spaces” that exist long enough: they are forced to no longer be “men’s spaces”, because being a “man’s space” is misogynistic.
Women’s spaces? Totally fine. Not misandric in the least.
See how “equality” works?
Edit:
Pick any third space where women’s only spaces exist, and you will also find men’s-only spaces that were sued either into nonexistence or into opening their doors for women, which caused it to no longer be a “men’s space”. From boxing clubs to smoking clubs to the f**king Boy Scouts of America, men’s spaces everywhere are being eliminated in the drive to “combat misogyny”.
Meanwhile, the president of the Girl Scouts privately admitted (can’t recall exactly when, but it was either during or shortly after the Boy Scout’s trial) that she would rather shut down the entire org than allow a single boy to join. And she was lauded for that position.
“Rules for thee, but not for me.”
That isn’t “equality” in the least. That’s blatant gender bigotry. And that is what the “black pill” is built upon - actual real-world evidence.
You want the black pill to stop existing? QUIT SHOVELLING THEM COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF AMMUNITION, FFS.
The irony of this reply about this subject…
The lack of awareness is what really gets me on this one. It’s almost unbelievable
He just try to justify female supremacy as a thing. Can’t take him seriously
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men lol. In fact it might be better if they aren’t given the specific topic of people we are talking about in this thread. In general an increase in community locations is a good thing, but it seemed especially so for people in the intel rabbit hole. Somewhere casual they can come out of their shells and meet people in the real world!
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer. After all, suppose a city makes a nice park across the street from an incel’s apartment. Maybe they’ll leave their house and go there… but do you really think this socially awkward weirdo is gonna start striking up conversations with other people there? Do you think they are going to engage with others who say hello to them, if others interact with them at all? Yes, a lack of third spaces is a problem, but I don’t think it is the lynchpin. We are also less likely to visit third places when they do exist these days due to digital distractions. People seem to be more insular, less likely to introduce themselves to strangers and less likely to be open to strangers introducing themselves. And significant social anxiety and lack of social skills is seldom overcome simply by having a neutral environment.
What we really need is grassroots social movements dedicated to being friendly to strangers, reducing digital distractions, reaching out to men who feel left behind, and informing parents about the importance of proactively ensuring that their children have healthy social and emotional lives.
Honestly, it’s whether you treat each human life as important or you don’t. I don’t think those people need to be changed, they just need to look at real life instead of running away from it. But I’ll say, working as a clerk in McDonalds doesn’t sound like the greatest achievement of all time.
And I would agree. Men in a group setting of only men will typically behave entirely differently than if you drop even a single woman into their midst. A man who is only among men will open up and behave and accept constructive criticism in ways that he will never do with even a single woman present. The change in behaviour a man exhibits in the presence of a woman is instinctual and unconscious, and is unable to be controlled or even moderated by the vast majority of men out there.
Having male-only spaces is absolutely essential to allowing men to behave as they would without the unconscious/instinctual pressure they would be subject to with a woman present.
Too bad these kinds of places are “misogynistic” in ways that women-only spaces are “not misandric”. The gender bigotry and hypocrisy in this dichotomy is blindingly overwhelming.
Probably why gaming bros became so popular. A time to hang out with “da boys” because there aren’t any other places you can do that without spending money.
I’m not saying you are categorically wrong about the benefits of male-only spaces. But I will say that the attitude and language with which you are approaching the issue is not doing you any favors.
Just to reinforce: male-only spaces are patriarchy, and there is no end to it or equality unless we end a specific sex-only space.
Men don’t need men-only spaces. That only deepens the rift between sexes. It’s absolutely not needed. You can completely respect the difference in sexes and that difference is welcomed, all other matters are bullshit from society. What humanity needs is respectful spaces for all sexes, not division.
The easiest way to identify gender bigotry is to flip the genders in contention. If there is identical interpretations, there is no bigotry in play. If there is a massive difference in how they are each interpreted, there is a massive amount of gender bigotry in play.
“Women don’t need women-only spaces.”
That sounds totally different, doesn’t it? Almost… threatening.
Now apply this to all the women-only spaces out there, like women-only gyms. Why should women-only gyms get to exist while men-only gyms get sued out of existence? Gender bigotry.
This cascades down through the whole of society - DV shelters, shelters for single parents, initiatives of all kinds for the vulnerable and precarious, which for nearly all of them focus far more heavily, or even exclusively, on women even when they are in the extreme minority.
So let’s strive for true equality - equal opportunities, services, and support for all. And if women have their own spaces, why not men? After all, that is what “equality” means.
Except that seems to generate unfathomable rage from the female supremacists when it actually gets suggested, who do everything in their power to shame such ideas of true equality into oblivion.
I have to say, I personally have been actively seeking male-only spaces for the past year. This has nothing to do with disliking women. I like women a lot and have a lot of female friends I care deeply about. The reason comes from my end - I have things that are difficult for me to talk about that I would like to discuss in a supportive environment with other people who understand and accept my lived experience. While I can and do open up to my female friends about some things, for other things I am simply more comfortable talking to other guys - where “more comfortable” means “I might talk about it *at all.”
Unfortunately, most male-only spaces put up significant barriers to entry, because otherwise they become magnets for right wing lunatics or the chronically depressed.
Average age of the membership was 46. That doesn’t sound “young” to me.
Some men are just eager to have a communal workout environment that doesn’t have gym thots preening their thirst trap poses all over the place
I feel like that’s more a problem of whatever specific gyms you are going to. Ones I go to have usually have signs up saying no cameras allowing people to just focus on their own workout. Regardless, the point is that if you want to help people overcome their “the world is against me, no woman wants me” mind set of an incel, there should be more spaces that let people interact with others outside of online algorithm controlled or bot account flooded social media platforms. Places to meet and converse with real people of any gender. All of a sudden they will probably realise that most people are actually nice. Most people don’t generally go around trying to make people feel shit or uncomfortable.
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
Imagine being the guy whose primary excuse to go to the gym is to “ogle hot women”.
Yeah, you’re a real progressive guy.
The sign of a man with experience is when he’s become sick of women’s shit.
The woman I am married to - which BTW, makes me wholly ineligible for MGTOW status - is one of the few women out there I actually want to spend time with beyond social niceties. I have zero interest in the vast majority of women out there - regardless of “hotness” - because I have come to know how women in general act and react; what their motivations are and how they approach life in general. And that just makes me wholly uninterested in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I will absolutely be polite and civil to women. I have absolutely no problem socializing with them and making them feel appreciated and valued as I would any human being, regardless of gender (or fractional thereof). I just have no interest in them as women.
How noble of you to modulate your bigotry
defensive backpeddling ensuing
lol I would like a male version of curves, I get anxiety and think ppl think im looking at them when I zone out, its never been an issue, like they usually just smile at me and I realize it looks like im staring at them looking away, still dont like having anxiety over it. Why is it insane to think men could be more comfortable in a mens only gym like women are at womens only. The gym in my hometown before they added cardio machines was peak.
I think the whole gym influencer stuff thing becoming popular made it worse forsure, wasnt as axious til those vids of woman recording men walking past and posting them online and my gym became a maze of tripods with everyone taking 10 hours to do their sets and check their footage. (The men are the issue here too)
But also gyms have nothing to do with third spaces, ppl use them like that but I think its out of neccesity.
How is wanting to be equal supremacist?
If you want to run a public business, the social contract has always been that you serve the public.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves” only enables the incel type behaviors. As well as belittling men. Because as a cis man, I certainly have no issue respecting a woman. Or any issue focusing on other things when they’re around. If men and boys were more familiar with interacting with women, they likely wouldn’t be bitter incels. Unable to understand why no woman wants to be around them. Like, literally.
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
No, I am facts-based.
And if you had any intellectual integrity, you would provide your argument on how my example wasn’t a stellar example of societal anti-male gender bigotry.
But you can’t.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
At least I’m not demonstrating the seething levels of gender bigotry that you are, so at least I’m one better than you.
I’m a bigot for saying you have negative awareness?
Well, the world isn’t supposed to be fair. Some random person’s actions don’t change the existence of incels. So, why would it matter? Women’s only spaces are out there because society determined so and that’s all there is to it. It isn’t anyone’s fault. Whether you want to do something about it, do it the intelligent way.
FOUND ONE!!!
Ah, a classic strategy of the intellectually bankrupt - an ad hominem. attacking the man instead of the argument.
Some of us tend to be obsessed with facts and evidence, and are not easily affected by the public shaming that arises from an intellectually bankrupt thought-terminating response. Try your strategy on someone else.
Facts and evidence are not on your side no matter how much you scream that they are… based on your singular anecdote, no less Classic brainwashed fascist incel vibes there.
The evidence is out there for anyone not blinded by fact-free ideology. You just have to look.
Are you mad that BSA allowed gays, or mad because they were exposed as pedophiles?
deleted by creator
This is only true in a vague, wishy-washy metaphysical sense. Fine, whatever, you have intrinsic value. If that warms your cockles, more power to you.
But the extent to which other people value you is entirely dependent on what you can provide to them. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Do you think that in a socialist society, a person who refused to do any work at all - not because they couldn’t, but just because they didn’t feel like it - would be shown general love and acceptance and kindness? No! They would, at best, be tolerated and given the bare necessities to survive - but they wouldnt be celebrated. Do you think primitive tribes love and support the lazy asshole who never contributes and just expects food to be brought to them every day? No, of course not! They kick that motherfucker out when they are dead weight.
And what you “provide” for other people doesn’t have to make money. But it does need to provide some kind of value. Do you have a beautiful smile that brightens peoples’ day? Are you tall enough to reach things on the top shelf, and willing to reach them for short people? Can you make hilarious dolphin sounds at parties? Are you a supportive friend who listens to others’ struggles when they are down? No? You just sit your ass on the couch all day and watch TV and interact with basically no one? Then why the fuck would you expect anyone to value you, when you provide no value to them? This is not a capitalism problem. This is a human solution. Dead weight gets dropped. Period. Always has, always will.
…But old people can retire. As long as they dont fuck up the government
Yes? What’s your point?
I figured it was obvious
I agree. People need to learn to get away from far-fetched fantasy if that doesn’t translate to real value. I know it’s harsh, but everyone needs to deal with reality.
Because a man’s prospects weren’t important in feudal, classical, and ancient societies?
No, they weren’t. Class was much more important. There was no class climbing prospect. You either were born into a having family or you weren’t. Even amongst peasants, men weren’t suppose to “have a career” or a prospect. You inherited whatever your family had.
There was expectations of performance, of course. There was internal competition, but no peasant would ever realistically transform into nobility via merit or otherwise.
Those ignorant of history forget that our current worldviews and values weren’t always universal. The notion of a linear career, of having prospects, to be successful, to grow from a low place and climb the social and financial rings, accumulating wealth enough to retire early then leave a lofty inheritance to children and grandchildren. All that is modern construction that is not present before the 19th century. Furthermore, the expectations that all the other poor people are lazy scumbags, but my poverty is merely a circumstantial setback is a very American exceptialism view.
So you are saying that a father of a girl at any class level in a feudal society cared not about the ability of a mate to provide for his daughter or grandchildren?
That kings and earls didn’t bring wealth and power into matchmaking calculations?
In general, no. It was a business transaction and whoever provided an appropriate dowry would get the girl. No matter their future prospects. The family didn’t care much for whatever happened to the girl afterwards. High class and nobility might’ve care for prestige and title inheritance. But otherwise it didn’t matter. We got so many historical novels with the plot point of a girl marrying a destitute nobleman and being abandoned by her original family that it is sort of a trope in the romantic period. Girl being sold by bankrupt father to save on food with one less mouth to feed was also a trope. You have to remember women weren’t valued much beyond their capacity of bearing children. They were little more than cattle for most western feudal societies.
Capitalism probably doesn’t help, but I don’t think male alienation is really unique to this time or culture. Any time you have social hierarchy the lowest tier ends up eating a lot of shit. Our social hierarchy is very capitalist but you’d easily find the same kind of thing even in hunter gatherer societies. Socialism has plenty of hierarchy baked in as well. Anarchists are about the only ones who actively attempt to “flatten” society.
“Career prospects” in this case means that men want to feel like they’re of use to society. The issue is only tied to capitalism in the sense that the current capitalist environment doesn’t offer many of them meaningful work. I’m not sure what alternative to capitalism you imagine would solve that problem - without also giving men those same career prospects they’re currently lacking. Taking care of and providing for the tribe is what we’re hardcoded to get meaning from.
You don’t need someone to create jobs for you, people just need to do useful stuff and it will get attention. As long as work is organized, it doesn’t make sense someone would “create” a job for you. It’s all about History. These neo-aristocrats have a hold on capital, so they decide what to do.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t care about work with this, just that no jobs are “created”.
I’ve seen so many men just suck at doing adult stuff in my life and career. It’s not a problem of men not having the opportunity to show value, it’s more that they expect to have value without providing anything. So if you feel useless, it’s more of a you problem that current media allows you to blame other people for.
Capitalism is causing some of these issues. The core issue is men expecting the world to hand them a sense of value.
Sounds like bootstrap talk to me.
In an ideal world, yes, men and women would be handed a sense of value from society.
Sometimes it helps to remember that a lot of people are actually hopelessly stupid. And this isn’t like some elitist ivory tower commentary - there is a good percentage of the population which struggles with basic problem solving, knowledge synthesis, critical thought, etc.
“Advanced capitalism” is sometimes literally called a “knowledge economy” and this has really properly fucked people who could have previously earned a fine living doing mindless physical work. And again, this isn’t like some normative statement - for most of human history this equation has been inverted, and intellectual opportunities were scarce. Honestly, part of the problem is probably very specifically that we have hit that inflection point, which is cultivating a new form of alienation for those who are on that lower cognitive tail, who both lack opportunities and are also made to feel inferior for it.
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There are many men in progressive political spaces. What?
Buddy I know a ton of men well placed in their careers and lifestyles that eat themselves up everynight out of loneliness.
How bout instead of waiting you arm up and help overthrow the EXTREMELY VIOLENT capitalist system? Go hunt a hedgefunder or private equity broker
Leftist incel vibes
No, freedom-endorsing patriot vibes
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SOOOOOOOO……we can all admit now that socioeconomics is real. Cuz I’d hate to think anyone would think this is a new concept and would affect only one group recently and they still sit there and think they are unique to this ’phenomenon’ whilst it’s been an effect for generations already and has gone ignored for about as long. And they’ve had to just ‘deal with it’.
Cuz I’m real sick of seeing this argument like it’s not been around and affecting whole swaths of groups of people for centuries.
You can admit there’s been slaves and it’s affected their families poorly? Let’s start with that. And it’s still happening. And it’s still being brushed under the carpet and there’s still flagrant racism targeting entire communities to ignore their prospects.
For generations.
Cuz that all happened way before incels in the burbs came about.
Who is pretending socioeconomic inequality isn’t real? I agree with what you say, but I’m not sure who here you’re directing your comment at.
Violence is the answer
So how would you imagine it would work out for a POC to open fire like a typical Incel does?
Depends on how good his aim is and choice of venue. Also, honkeys can help out
The only reason Luigi is still alive is he’s white.