As it turns out it doesn’t actually cost that much on regular transit, there’s an AIRPORT SURCHARGE because it’s an “airport train”.
No wonder Americans don’t use public transit, even when the system exists it’s ridiculously difficult and expensive to use.
transit fares are regressive taxes
Bart is expensive, but some of the best transit in America unfortunately. Why I generally just hop the gate by pushing through before the things close
No wonder Americans don’t use public transit, even when the system exists it’s ridiculously difficult and expensive to use.
Here is my daily commute to work:
The Public Transit option is literally greyed out, and Google goes “lmao get a fucking car, peasant.”If I were going to minimize my car usage and strictly use public transit, it would be a ~20 minute bike ride (in the opposite direction of where I work) to the nearest bus station, to get to a public transit service that doesn’t even cover where I work. Then I’d take a bus to a train station, and ride it south through two cities. Then I’d make a transfer to a northern line, and ride it back north through those same two cities (and a third additional city) in order to get near another rail line. Then it would be another ~20 minute bike ride to transfer from one rail system to another, because the public transit in the southern cities doesn’t service the city where I work. Once I’m transferred to the service that covers where I work, it’s another ~20 minute rail ride, followed by a ~10 minute bike ride after getting off the train.
All in all, it would be about 2.5 hours of public transit riding, (and about an hour of riding my bike in +100°F/38°C weather), just to avoid driving 10 minutes. It would also require maintaining two separate transit passes, because the southern and northern transit systems don’t work with one another. Yeah, it’s no wonder I take my car to work.
May I ask how car is 10 minutes and bike 53? And walk over 2 hours? I ride the electric bike to work and it’s about 10 minutes ride, vs 4 minutes by car, so roughly double. 20 minute walk, not brisk. It’s hot here too, that’s part of why I got the electronic bike, walking was making me arrive sweaty.
American roads rarely have sidewalks. You have to have a different route entirely.
The routes are usually different for biking, walking, and driving. The speeds on the highway are also often several times the rate of speed you’ll be able to achieve on an e-bike and certainly much higher than you’ll be able to achieve on a manual bike.
When I was in college, it was a 2mile bike ride to campus from my office campus housing, conversely it was a 6h Transit ride on buses metros and all sorts of stuff. The lack of lockers ment carrying several bags to and from school on a bike, which sucked. I ended up driving cuz it was easier.
Might be better getting a moped/motorcycle and taking the car route. It’s more environmentally friendly than the car, anyway, but it doesn’t take your entire day away from you.
How many minutes would it be to cycle to work?
It’s written on their gmaps screenshot: 53 mins.
Also worth noting that the listed bike route requires riding on a 70MPH highway, which doesn’t have a shoulder, sidewalk, side street, or bike path. If I were going to avoid that highway, (because let’s be real, I’d be dead on day 1 after being hit by a car,) then it would be about two hours of cycling.
I live within a very reasonable distance of work. But there is literally no safe route to get there. Not even a longer alternate route, just no way to get there without a significantly hazardous stretch of road. Riding that as a one-off would be one thing, but riding it 240 (give or take) round trips per year for years on end are not odds that I am interested in taking.
I would love to cycle to work, which would both help the environment and improve my physical health with some much needed exercise.
JFK rail transfer to Jamaica Queens is like… Shit like 8.50? Then you can get on the ‘regular’ subway. It’s way cheaper (and can take about the same time from Manhattan) than using a taxi or an Uber.
So your airport transportation is 8.50 on top of your metro card (34 a week which easily is covered if you are about the city at all).
WAY cheaper using the subway in NYC than owning a vehicle. A month for the metro is 132 for comparison.
FYI, airport surcharges are very common. Across the bay at Oakland has an airport surcharge. Sydney has them too, which I was happy about because Melbourne doesn’t have a train (AU $25 for a bus ticket, which was sold out) nor did Hobart. I recall AREX in Incheon also having a significant fare jump for the airport stops.
For argument purposes, BART is $0.18/mile (19th Oakland <> Berryessa). That’s still pretty high for regional public transit, which is mostly due to BART’s high farebox recovery. That high recovery is now a problem with the whole pandemic and subsequent slow return of ridership.
But in Sydney you will pay the surcharge only when you get off or on at the actual airport station. Just using that line and passing the airport will cost you nothing extra. Usually less than 4 AUD for the whole trip.
London has a expensive express line from Heathrow to the city and a regular underground line that costs a fraction.
The Narita Express also costs significantly more than the regular train into Tokyo. Airport trains have to account for travelers with a lot of luggage and thus can carry fewer people than regular trains.
Here in Kansas City our transit was free for the past four years.
The downer is that, since we subsidized the public transit here in the city, the various suburbs opted to stop funding the routes that went into their various towns and cities, so now fares are going to be re-introduced.
At least the streetcar is going to remain free here, for now, and likely through 2026 due to the World Cup.
Olathe and OP are two big reasons we can’t have anything nice here. The streetcar is staying on the Missouri side only (at least for now) so I’m hopeful it’ll stay free.
goddamn you know you live in a fucked up society when the missouri side of your city is the more progressive.
This is more of a “city vs suburb” issue than the difference between 2 adjacent states.
eh, I just despise missouri more for having to live there repeatedly. not that kansas is utopia, but living in missouri was uniquely depressing.
Yeah. To be fair, those 2 cities represent the worst in yuppie suburbanism and “i got mine” mentality, so the bar for comparison is really low
You’re not wrong. Those two cities love their cars and their shitty chain stores.
When you have free public transport it ceases to be strictly public transport, and becomes half homeless shelter. No one wants to ride around with people who are all too often drug riddled, mentally ill, and just all around awful to be in an enclosed space with. I have sympathy for and want to help that demographic, but turning public transport into extremely expensive homeless day rooms ain’t it.
Edit: down vote me all you like, free fares is an awful idea. If we want functional and useful public transport in this country we have to have it be safe and clean. I say this as someone who hasn’t owned a personal auto in 12 plus years. I love and use public transport every day. Drug addled assholes are a problem.
Any critique of homeless people gets insta-downvoted unfortunately. The KC transit system, which I like, is rife with homeless people and many of them are visibly maladjusted and the people downvoting you would be instantly afraid of them. I’ve had one try to physically intimidate me, so now I carry a pocket stun-gun everywhere.
In fact, our streetcar is getting armed security guards because of said maladjusted homeless people.
Oh, I know.
That’s partly why I carry a stun-gun everywhere now.
This conversation was just had in another thread but you’re far better off with pepper spray. Get a friend to zap you with the stun gun, then ask yourself a question. If I was intent on being violent, would this stop me or just piss me off? For me the answer is the latter, and I’ve been stun gunned, even cattle prodded, messing around being stupid when I was younger.
I hear she’s running for governor of California! That would be amazing. Fuck Newsom.
Good grief no…Porter is extremely car-brained. Her first run for office was based entirely on opposing the gas tax. She then went on to support some dumb freeway projects:
That’s some light criticism considering the alternative is flirting with fascists. Newsom had Steve Bannon on the first episode of his podcast.
Newsom is term limited, he ain’t coming back. That’s also the reason he’s turning right IMO, gearing up for a presidential run and thinks hariss’ biggest mistake wasn’t going on right wing podcasts.
Newsom
I see him angling for senate or a whitehouse run… not succesfully but yeah
You see, we will become the opposition party by moving to the right of the republicans (fox will still call us communists)
Ohhhh I didn’t know that. It certainly explains why he’s taking this turn.
Newsom isn’t running for Governor (he is termed out).
Ohhhh. I didn’t know he couldn’t run again. That certainly explains his recent turn. I really like Katie Porter overall though, and wish her luck. I love watching those clips of her grilling CEOs. She seems like a no nonsense type of person. A little car brained is something we can work with.
I’m not a huge fan of Porter. But between her and Kamala fucking Harris, whose big takeaway from the 2024 election seems to be “we didn’t run far enough to the right…”
I’ll admit I don’t know much about her outside of those videos of her grilling CEOs when she was part of the Progressive Caucus. If she’s as pro average citizen as she seems, she’s better than most. What don’t you like about her?
She traveled by airplane to San Francisco – while campaigning against building a HSR system for the state. She also said she lost the CA Senate race because the election was “rigged”. She is not a progressive – just a stupid populist.
One of the reasons I don’t want to live anywhere else in the US is NYC had public transit that mostly works. Even if this weekend I had to do a Q to the N to the 7 to back to the N to get to queens. I played a whole game of Lords of Waterdeep on my phone and read some of my book.
I used to sit on the Prospect Park<->Franklin Ave S shuttle on Saturday mornings and just ride it back and forth while reading a book because it was so calming. Gliding through green backyards in the springtime.
I couldn’t handle living in NYC long term, but I did stay, mostly in Brooklyn, for four months. The subway is amazing. I will never drive in that city again if I can avoid it.
The current toll to cross the bay bridge by car from Oakland to sf is $8, and like someone mentioned it’s only $4.25 from Oakland to sf without the airport charge, so you are still saving by using bart, just not as much as you probably should.
Toronto’s UP express checking in. $12.35 from down town to the airport. Sub way in the city is cheap and affordable but that dam airport thing is in its own world.
https://www.upexpress.com/en/about-up/things-are-looking-up
Next topic is toll roads. 407. Full there and back trip during main business hours. 274km = $173.50
It used to be more. Then someone pointed out it was more expensive than a cab from downtown to the airport.
Same in Edinburgh. The buses and trams have a capped fee per day but it doesn’t count if you’re coming from the airport for some reason…
Why do Americans think everything has to profit?
Not only must everything profit, it must profit MORE than it did previously. If you make $10 million selling widgets last year, and make $10 million again this year, well that’s a failing business and you should be fired.
If you predict that your business will be up 5% this quarter, and it’s only up 3%, that’s considered a disaster, and the stock price will drop, and that CEO is still in trouble. Repeat every quarter.
Because that’s the foundation and definition of capitalism. The market will provide (as long as there’s profit to be made).
Not saying it’s right though.
That’s not the definition or foundation of capitalism, it’s the definition of a market economy.
The foundation of capitalism is a system where investors can pool small amounts of money together on big projects, to share risk and reward. Historically to fund trading ships on their way to the indies.
So it destructures ownership, which has a million ripple effects on the organization and economy.
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit. This socioeconomic system has developed historically through several stages and is defined by a number of basic constituent elements: private property, profit motive, capital accumulation, competitive markets, commodification, wage labor, and an emphasis on innovation and economic growth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
In the context of “Why do Americans think everything has to profit?”, then the point is that the train is considered only for the profit it can make, and not for the environmental etc benefits. This is a result of the market economy as you rightly state (and private ownership of transportation).
You’re describing corporatism.
Not at all, corporatism is a system where interest groups have a high amount of power : guilds, syndicates, unions, etc…
Capitalism literally refers to pooling capital together from multiple sources to allow shared risk taking and allow for the creation of companies that can get bigger by having more than one owner.
This eventually leads the way for pension funds and multinational corporations whose sole purpose is to extract maximum value for pensioners and billionaires.
Capitalism literally refers to pooling capital together from multiple sources to allow shared risk taking and allow for the creation of companies that can get bigger by having more than one owner.
Sounds way more like corporatism to me. Capitalism is just when the private investors own businesses for profit. Pooling capital from multiple sources and reducing risks are not fundamental properties of capitalism, and are much more representative of Limited Liability Corporations specifically.
It’s still probably significantly cheaper than Uber/Lyft.
Yeah, payed $30 to get from the airport to downtown sf a couple days ago, so probably closer to $50 to get all the way to oakland.
Meanwhile here in Germany I can use any bus, tram, U-Bahn, or train (excluding high speed) anywhere in the country for 58€/month
The DeutschlandTicket is the best thing! I love it. I want that with their Steuernummer, baby’s get a DeutschlandTicket. Everybody needs a DeutschlandTicket.
I’ve been wondering why this hasn’t become a thing yet. Probably lobbying from all the Verkehrsverbünde.
No, they really want to keep it as cheap as possible. It’s the Bundesregierung that rather subsidises Diesel privileges and Pendlerpauschalen.
In SF its a hundred dollars a month, but you can only go to 4 stations in the city, so you end up paying regular fare on top of that all the time, and usless for commuters.
The busses frequently dont exist even though google and the signs say they should be arriving, so youre frequently an hour or more late because you had to get an uber because the bus never came.
If youre going to a connecting train or flight you need to leave hours early to account for delays.
NYC is much more reasonable
It cost me about £60 for one return rail ticket last week 😭 that’s not including the tube fare to get to the station.
Yep, train tickets are ridiculous here. It kills me on the inside whenever I have to go to London.
But if you don’t have the D-ticket, good luck figuring out how the local ticketing machine works haha
Easy, just buy the ticket in DB Navigator
I want that in the Netherlands as well. Much smaller country, so less value for your money. But now you pay even more (€66) for a return ticket from the east border to the west border (Winterswijk - Scheveningen).
Imagine working minimum wage in SF and commuting in by BART + BUS / MUNI Lightrail / CALTRAIN / FERRY. Gotta work at least 2 hours just to cover the costs of your commute every day.
There is a significantly reduced fare available. https://www.sfmta.com/fares/clipper-start
Wait… Employers don’t cover travel cost to and from work in America…?
Lmao.
No they don’t
Where do they cover your commuting costs? I’ve never heard of that.
In Brazil, it’s pretty common for the employer to pay your transit fare to/from work. Often you can receive the same value directly instead if you choose to use another form of transportation.
Here in Paris, half of our transportation fee (carte Navigo, 87€ per month) is paid by the employer.
It’s common in multiple European countries.
but also not common in multiple european countries
Shit bruh, even here in the fucked up USA, plenty of places (in cities, anyway) subsidize commutes. My employer pays for half of my public transport costs.
Where do employers cover the cost of sommuting?
Pretty rarely, far as I know. I’ve seen some that cover public transit costs at least. It’s more common for them to only reimburse costs for travel during work hours or for business related trips.
Nope, very rarely do you see them cover it at all. That’s why we hate our 1+ hour drive commutes.
Wtf? It’s normal in the Netherlands…
Public transport will be the whole second class price. By car it is up to 23 cents per kilometer.
Gosh that would be nice. Unfortunately we are stuck on simpler issues like “do kids deserve to eat at school”, so it’ll probably be a while before we get paid commute time.
Many do: I believe there is a tax incentive for them. I’ve only had it while working downtown, and in a white collar job. So not where you’d usually drive to work and not for hourly pay.
Given that there are very few required benefits, it can be fairly regressive. You don’t get help with transit unless you’re an aid enough. You don’t get better health coverage unless you’re paid enough.
Not in Canada either
Not required. SF does have an ordinance to cover some costs depending on the number of employees. But its not some nationwide law.
If you’re a fancy tech bro in SF all your costs are covered, health/dental/vision/life insurance, commuting stipend or govt subsidized account you get to put pre-tax money in and the company might match, matching contributions for your retirement 401K. The techbro class doesn’t care about the cost of BART, many of them take an UBER for 3-4x the BART faire and not bat and eye at the bill (or use the company UBER account for free). If you’re just some random minimum wage worker, you’d be lucky to live within an hour or two commute of SF and afford housing.
Surprisingly it is a national law, but it’s in the tax code as an optional benefit so it’s usually the better part paying jobs that get it, weirdly enough. Scroll to “commuter benefit)
I was a techbro in sf. I worked from home most days, but when I went to the office, I used Bart and my bicycle. It was great. I hate cars.
And, yes, I got the State to refund me for my monthly Bart pass
They do. You have to apply for it, and there’s a ceiling per month.
A bus ticket for me to get to work is $3.50 and it’s about 1h40m. It takes roughly 35-45 minutes to drive. Idk if that’s good or not but I consider myself lucky that I don’t need to transfer buses
This is the norm where I live too, AND my city has a relatively good public transportation system.
