I’ve been trying to convince my parents that this is absofuckinglutely genocide. It has not gone well. They are convinced that Israel is simply defending themselves, and all the civilian casualties are just how war is.
You could make the comparison with Russia’s actions towards Ukraine. Is it “just war” when Russia intentionally bombs children’s schools and hospitals? Most countries are civilized enough to only target military targets during a war. It’s also worth pointing out that modern missiles do not “accidentally” hit the wrong target, that’s about as likely as shooting a gun and “accidentally” hitting your friend standing behind you.
Bad comparison. Did Ukraine provoke Russia to war by slaughtering thousands of Russian civilians? That’s what makes it self-defense. Were Ukranians using hospitals and their inhabitants as human shields? No, they weren’t, and that’s what justified Israel’s attacks on them. According to the IDF, they were attacking military targets.
So by your reasoning, Palestine was perfectly justified in their actions since Israel had already slaughtered thousands of their civilians, right? It’s not like that attack came out of nowhere, Israel has been murdering Palestinian civilians for decades. Also keep in mind that the only “proof” of Hamas using their hospital as human shields actually came from the IDF, all the articles I’ve seen on the subject have stated that no independent source has been able to confirm any of the propaganda that the IDF is putting out.
This conflict is long enough that either side has plenty of cassus belli to choose from, moral justification isn’t as relevant here as Gaza’s realpolitik situation. Hamas poked the bear, and started a war with a military conflict they cannot win against. No amount of outrage will change this. Israel’s response is totally predictable. Hamas wanted to start a war, and they got one; perhaps having them as leaders wasn’t a good idea. They clearly see Palestinians as expendable, and are happy to create a situation that causes many dead civilians provided they can parade them in front of cameras and make Israel look bad.
all the articles I’ve seen on the subject have stated that no independent source has been able to confirm any of the propaganda that the IDF is putting out.
Sorry to chime in on this - it was an interesting debate!
The problem I have with your link (and I’m not really interested in getting into the other details, I’m too new to this conflict), is that it came from the white house - that’s screams of the IDF going to their big brother and asking for them to vouch for them - it’s like the least independent source possible (other than the IDF or Hamas, of course!)
Perhaps. It’s good to be skeptical but foolish to assume we know better than those who have access to intelligence we do not. It could be that they are making this up to support Israel, but far more likely they have similar sources for their information. The consequences for getting caught lying about something like this would be significant.
Interesting!! So there’s definitely a tunnel and it’s unclear what it connects to…
About time there was some clear data in amongst all the lies and half-truths. This will be a huge help for Israel if it proves significant, at least there’ll be some vindication
So what you’re saying is that innocent civilian deaths are deserved and you are in support of them? For example, if there was a school hostage situation in your hometown, law enforcement should bomb the whole place, children and all! After seeing all of the easily debunked lies IDF puts out, it’s hard to trust any single thing they say.
If someone takes hostages they should be taken out even if it might mean collateral damage. Doing otherwise encourages more hostage taking in the future. Police actions do not need air support.
after seeing all of the easily debunked lies IDF puts out
Citation? The only IDF lie I’m aware of was when that Palestinian reporter lady was capped by IDF and they initially lied about the circumstances, but later admitted it and apologized.
Thanks, but I am unable to see the thread, all I see is a post citing a photo of soldiers in Al-Shifa hospital claiming it is a lie with no context or sources. Perhaps it’s because I don’t have a twitter account?
Yes, if said attacks were against valid military targets and those civilian deaths were collateral damage. Consider the alternatives for Israel: 1) Send troops in without air support into hostile urban guerilla territory, resulting in heavy casualties, or 2) Do not retaliate for Oct 7, encouraging further future attacks and proving human shield tactics effective. From a game theory point of view, both of these are colossally stupid moves that would result in more Israeli deaths.
If you want to blame anyone for said civilian deaths, blame the terrorist government that provoked the attack while using them as human shields.
Not sure if you’re a troll or just horribly uninformed but Israel has been illegaly occupying Palestine for over 50 years and does not have the right to use military force in occupied Palestine.
You have some seriously warped perspective. Israel is indeed committing actual genocide and ethic cleansing. They want to destroy Palestine and relocate what people are left, if any, into other countries. They have been creating illegal settlements for many many years if you want some context for this strategy.
Israel is not “defending” itself. For example, sniping innocent doctors and patients and destroying a hospital is not self defense. The al shifa hospital also has not been found to be a Hamas base… 15 guns and a tunnel are not a military base. If it was, this still would not justify those actions. The scale of this “defense” is really disgusting, especially when Israel has been oppressing the people of Palestine for many decades.
Israel is indeed committing actual genocide and ethic cleansing
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Such accusations against Israel devalue the seriousness of these terms. Crying genocide when it’s clearly not applicable is like crying wolf; Israel is clearly not trying to eliminate Muslims or Arabs, if they were they certainly have the means to do so more effectively. In fact, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab/Palestinians.
Accusations of ethnic cleansing make no sense unless you extend the term to include national groups that are currently attacking you. Denying a hostile belligerent nation land is ethnic cleansing? Absurd.
Want to slaughter civilians in your neighboring nation and leave them unable to retaliate without being called a genocidal ethnic cleansing apartheid state? Just be a monoethnicity! Modern nations hate this one trick.
And you get a genocide and you get a… No, just Israel actually.
I’ve been trying to convince my parents that this is absofuckinglutely genocide. It has not gone well. They are convinced that Israel is simply defending themselves, and all the civilian casualties are just how war is.
You could make the comparison with Russia’s actions towards Ukraine. Is it “just war” when Russia intentionally bombs children’s schools and hospitals? Most countries are civilized enough to only target military targets during a war. It’s also worth pointing out that modern missiles do not “accidentally” hit the wrong target, that’s about as likely as shooting a gun and “accidentally” hitting your friend standing behind you.
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Yeah I know… There’s no escaping it, people are dumb.
Some estimates say over one million Iraqis were killed during the American invasion and occupation.
Americans aren’t civilized, just entitled. (Yes, I’m an American)
Bad comparison. Did Ukraine provoke Russia to war by slaughtering thousands of Russian civilians? That’s what makes it self-defense. Were Ukranians using hospitals and their inhabitants as human shields? No, they weren’t, and that’s what justified Israel’s attacks on them. According to the IDF, they were attacking military targets.
So by your reasoning, Palestine was perfectly justified in their actions since Israel had already slaughtered thousands of their civilians, right? It’s not like that attack came out of nowhere, Israel has been murdering Palestinian civilians for decades. Also keep in mind that the only “proof” of Hamas using their hospital as human shields actually came from the IDF, all the articles I’ve seen on the subject have stated that no independent source has been able to confirm any of the propaganda that the IDF is putting out.
This conflict is long enough that either side has plenty of cassus belli to choose from, moral justification isn’t as relevant here as Gaza’s realpolitik situation. Hamas poked the bear, and started a war with a military conflict they cannot win against. No amount of outrage will change this. Israel’s response is totally predictable. Hamas wanted to start a war, and they got one; perhaps having them as leaders wasn’t a good idea. They clearly see Palestinians as expendable, and are happy to create a situation that causes many dead civilians provided they can parade them in front of cameras and make Israel look bad.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-intelligence-hamas-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-hold/story?id=104887035
Sorry to chime in on this - it was an interesting debate!
The problem I have with your link (and I’m not really interested in getting into the other details, I’m too new to this conflict), is that it came from the white house - that’s screams of the IDF going to their big brother and asking for them to vouch for them - it’s like the least independent source possible (other than the IDF or Hamas, of course!)
Perhaps. It’s good to be skeptical but foolish to assume we know better than those who have access to intelligence we do not. It could be that they are making this up to support Israel, but far more likely they have similar sources for their information. The consequences for getting caught lying about something like this would be significant.
For the record, it appears they were telling the truth. CNN just sent a reporter to Al-Shifa who verified Israel’s claims.
Interesting!! So there’s definitely a tunnel and it’s unclear what it connects to…
About time there was some clear data in amongst all the lies and half-truths. This will be a huge help for Israel if it proves significant, at least there’ll be some vindication
So what you’re saying is that innocent civilian deaths are deserved and you are in support of them? For example, if there was a school hostage situation in your hometown, law enforcement should bomb the whole place, children and all! After seeing all of the easily debunked lies IDF puts out, it’s hard to trust any single thing they say.
deserved != justified
If someone takes hostages they should be taken out even if it might mean collateral damage. Doing otherwise encourages more hostage taking in the future. Police actions do not need air support.
Citation? The only IDF lie I’m aware of was when that Palestinian reporter lady was capped by IDF and they initially lied about the circumstances, but later admitted it and apologized.
Here’s a pretty good thread https://twitter.com/joemayall/status/1725285942104105158
Thanks, but I am unable to see the thread, all I see is a post citing a photo of soldiers in Al-Shifa hospital claiming it is a lie with no context or sources. Perhaps it’s because I don’t have a twitter account?
I believe it’s well established by now that Hamas made the hospital a military target, both by building a tunnel network under the hospital and having their soldiers hide kidnapped people from Oct.7 within it.
Yep I think Twitter has been blocking thread viewing for people without accounts lately. This link should work if you want to read. https://nitter.net/joemayall/status/1725285942104105158
Did it justify the bombs and artillery strikes that have killed 13k+ civilians?
Yes, if said attacks were against valid military targets and those civilian deaths were collateral damage. Consider the alternatives for Israel: 1) Send troops in without air support into hostile urban guerilla territory, resulting in heavy casualties, or 2) Do not retaliate for Oct 7, encouraging further future attacks and proving human shield tactics effective. From a game theory point of view, both of these are colossally stupid moves that would result in more Israeli deaths.
If you want to blame anyone for said civilian deaths, blame the terrorist government that provoked the attack while using them as human shields.
I don’t for one second believe that the damage done is unavoidable collateral damage. You would have to be seriously brainwashed to think that.
Prove it isn’t.
Prove it is. lol.
The burden lies with Israel to justify the killing of innocent civilians.
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Not sure if you’re a troll or just horribly uninformed but Israel has been illegaly occupying Palestine for over 50 years and does not have the right to use military force in occupied Palestine.
You have some seriously warped perspective. Israel is indeed committing actual genocide and ethic cleansing. They want to destroy Palestine and relocate what people are left, if any, into other countries. They have been creating illegal settlements for many many years if you want some context for this strategy.
Israel is not “defending” itself. For example, sniping innocent doctors and patients and destroying a hospital is not self defense. The al shifa hospital also has not been found to be a Hamas base… 15 guns and a tunnel are not a military base. If it was, this still would not justify those actions. The scale of this “defense” is really disgusting, especially when Israel has been oppressing the people of Palestine for many decades.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Such accusations against Israel devalue the seriousness of these terms. Crying genocide when it’s clearly not applicable is like crying wolf; Israel is clearly not trying to eliminate Muslims or Arabs, if they were they certainly have the means to do so more effectively. In fact, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab/Palestinians.
Accusations of ethnic cleansing make no sense unless you extend the term to include national groups that are currently attacking you. Denying a hostile belligerent nation land is ethnic cleansing? Absurd.
Want to slaughter civilians in your neighboring nation and leave them unable to retaliate without being called a genocidal ethnic cleansing apartheid state? Just be a monoethnicity! Modern nations hate this one trick.