Only the salary ranges for a position become public. They aren’t going to publish what they pay each employee.
And if it’s anything like California the ranges will be useless. My salary “range” is quoted as $80k - $170k. Real fucking useless.
My salary is between $1 and $10000000
so you get paid $80k right?
$81K because they have 5 years experience in a technology that has been out for 3 years.
I’ve looked at some California ranges. They tend to be well below what levels.fyi claims these companies pay (I’m thinking Netflix, Microsoft, Google).
I’m assuming they lowball the range in the ad so if they get a candidate that doesn’t fit the original criteria they were thinking of but they still want to onboard, they can pay less. If they get a candidate that they really like, maybe they’ll pay more? I know we’re supposed to be all doom and gloom here, but there’s plenty of folks making ludicrous salaries in tech.
Thats true, you can ask the average salary for the role within the firm though. Having seen the pisstaking done in America with ranges, they got out ahead of it.
Netflix Salary Range: $3.50 to $900,000
Salary range: Illegal - Fantasy
I assume there may be some cutoff point, but what if you have a low number of people in the role say for example 2. Wouldn’t that be pretty much narrowing it down to being per employee?
Interesting… Look forward to seeing how it goes. Hope the gender pay gap does collapse but I’d say we are still a generation of workers away from that being a reality.
Knowing what your coworkers are getting paid lets you know how much you can reasonably ask for.
And knowing what folks at the job down the street make means you can quickly determine whether its worth the trouble to find a new job.
Also probably doesn’t hurt to know what the folks upstairs are making when you’re deciding whether to form a union.
What if it enables price-fixing for the companies?
Companies already share wage data between one another privately.
Apple, Google, Intel and Adobe have agreed to pay $415 million to settle a lawsuit that alleges they secretly conspired in their employee hiring practices, NPR’s Aarti Shahani reports.
Plaintiffs say the companies set and limited employee salaries and agreed not to poach one another’s workers
Great, now the sharing of necessary data is not just legal but required
He who has the data, makes the rules
I don’t know. What if?
Gender pay gap uncorrected for working hours, position, …? Or the corrected one?
You do know that the gender pay gap in the same position with the same experience essentially doesn’t exist in Europe?
Coincidentally, publishing salary ranges isn’t gonna help with the gender pay gap.
So, if you actually care about the issue, maybe go educate yourself first.
You do know that the gender pay gap in the same position with the same experience essentially doesn’t exist in Europe?
First hand knowledge says this is far from true.
Your first-hand knowledge is worth nothing against the data.
Tax reports and social security data has been thoroughly analyzed by multiple countries.
In fact, it’s often that women outearn men.
There’s a very interesting factor that eventually does lead to an astounding pay gap, but lemme see how many more anecdotal evidence you can pull out of your ass before I tell you what literature to look at.
but lemme see how many more anecdotal evidence you can pull out of your ass before I tell you
- Please be civil.
- Please be helpful rather than intentionally wasting people’s time.
;( but, daaad, he started first!
(not really, ik)
Gender gap dosen’t exists, if exists is women who ear more, sure.
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Hi. I banned you for 3 days to cool off. You had a warning and you were rude again & missed the point too.
Yeah, you uneducated anon. Childless women with […]
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I think everyone is arguing different points here. The first comment spoke about the gender pay gap, which is not restricted to same job/same experience. It also considers that positions that are typically filled by women (care, nursing, teaching, etc) are systematically underpaid, which is also a perfectly valid way to define a gender wage gap.
But for some reason you responded by singling out the same job/same experience data, then told the first guy to educate himself.
Everyone here is saying the gender wage gap very much exists in general in Europe, and you’re singling out one smaller data point where it doesn’t.
No, that person specifically implied that once they start publishing salary ranges the gender pay gap will collapse.
That person lives in a fairy tale world of non-existent salary discrimination that they furiously fight.
Their heart is sorta in the right place, but they’re essentially a useless idiot, who with their crusade distracts everyone from actually trying to understand the real reasons behind the unadjusted gender pay gap and any efforts of solving it.
I wish I had your confidence. You pull the “data doesn’t prove it” move and then won’t even do the bare minimum to verify if you’re talking out of your ass. Based on 2022 data men on average earned 12% more. It didn’t even take me a minute to find this data. One Google search and you would’ve instantly known that you’re wrong, but you’re so confident in you being right you don’t even need to check if you’re wrong.
What your message shows is that even when the data is in front of you, it’s useless, because all you can see is your confirmation bias.
It specifically says “unadjusted”.
You understand nothing on the subject and continue your crusade for some holy grail, because you believe it will bring prosperity to your entire nation or something. All this shows is that your average left voter is as dumb as your average far right voter.
There’s a decade of research consistently showing that the most impactful factor contributing to the unadjusted gender pay gap is childbirth.
Single childess women with college degrees earn as much or slightly outearn their male competition.
These trajectories spectacularly diverge after the first child.
If you care about the unadjusted pay gap, you need to promote societal change that 1) enables and encourages men to take on childcare duties, 2) significantly improve daycare infrastructure, 3) realize that some couples will still decide that it’s somehow better for the mother to spend time at home with the kids and take on less demanding jobs and/or lose many years of experience, and that this unadjusted pay gap in some capacity is here to stay for another century or so, and it’s not a societal failure.
My evidence? A decade of research. 134 countries. https://www.henrikkleven.com/uploads/3/7/3/1/37310663/child_penalty_atlas_june2024.pdf
You can look at more of his papers on the subject.
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But hey, you can Google, anon, right?
I’m not sure what you were trying to accomplish but all I’m seeing is you agreeing that there is a wage gap. You argument was “it’s often that women outearn men.” Which you’ve now clarified that post marriage and post child they clearly do not. So before marriage or before a child they should, where’s the data? The “useless” unadjusted data shows a smaller wage gap in younger employees (who are much less likely to be married or have children) but there’s still a wage gap in many EU countries.
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And here’s my horse in this race: https://www.henrikkleven.com/uploads/3/7/3/1/37310663/child_penalty_atlas_june2024.pdf
Can you link the data to review?
Genuinely would like to see it.
You want the figure 5B from here:
https://www.henrikkleven.com/uploads/3/7/3/1/37310663/kleven-landais-sogaard_aej-applied_sep2018.pdf
The rest of the paper actually focuses on the real reasons behind the pay gap, which should also give you a perspective of why it’s probably futile to argue in terms of “a woman makes 78 cents for every dollar a man makes”.
But if you really wanna dig deeper there are some studies that try to figure out the remaining 3% or whatever.
I wonder if this could help the IT workers from the public sector in Germany (E12, around 2500 €/month).
Anyone knows why it is like that?
Once, I heard about some speculative extra amounts made by guarantees in purchases. (Germans love guarantees, and any hardware purchase has a 50% surplus that can easily be split 1:1 between vendor and whoever was in charge. Yes, it would be illegal… But nearly impossible to prove.)
I work in the Dutch public sector in IT, but with a few years of experience, I’m already beyond 4k/mo.
Sounds like the union isn’t pulling it’s weight…
In this case the Unions and HRs rigidity could be part of the problem.
They tend to make groups based on formal qualifiaction. E.g. all trade apprentices get similiar salaries, all trade masters, all bachelor degrees and all master degrees (simplified).
So a person with just a formal trade apprentice, but great experience and proven know-how will still get a much lower salary than a recently graduates business degree “idiot” who mostly managed to study based on his parents pushing him through.
I’ve seen Job ads for cloud experts, who are supposed to organize an infrastructure over multiple data centres, running hundreds of different services in a heightened security environment offered around 3k. The Operations people said that this does not need a masters degree, because they didn’t want to filter out all the self taught people, and then HR and the Union reps said this is a trade level position so it gets a trade level salary.
From what i understood with the complexity of the IT landscape they would have needed to offer more around 6-7k to find people.
You’re net salary is beyond 4k? Are you hiring?
Why net all of the sudden?
Because the German salary is net and I thus assumed that the Dutch salary is as well.
What do you mean by ”sudden”?
Why net? In Sweden we only ever talk about gross, or as we save “before taxes”, as it varies around the country.
Germans do too, no idea what OC was thinking about. It indeed doesn’t make sense to talk about net as that changes with personal circumstances.
The group E12 that was mentioned starts at 4170€/ month gross. That’s just under the German average wage (but above Median).
Same in the Netherlands, so I’d assume the Dutch salary is gross as well.
Well the German one isn’t though, so this is like comparing apples to oranges
Why net?
Because E12 refers to a very specific salary table. Hence the German salary must be net.
Why would you compare Net and gross salaries?
It’s gross, not net. The net amount is like 3200.
Those jobs exist, and are hiring. My company (US-based, Software, between 1k and 10k employees) is hiring architects in Germany (anywhere, 100% remote) for significantly over 4k net. Starting salary is over 100k, plus a nice RSU package (4 year vest with 1 year cliff). Other similar companies offer comparable compensation packages.
We do require a quite wide tech knowledge and good communication (customer interaction is part of the job, sometimes public speaking). It is not as relaxed as public sector, tho, most weeks are over 40h. Some traveling required, too.
If anyone is interested feel free to ping me (full disclosure: Iget a 5k USD referral bonus if you get hired and pass the Probezeit).
I am interested as well
Feel free to pm me if you have any questions :)
Something I forgot to add above: since the position requires speaking with customers, most countries require fluent local language (apparently with the exception of Scandinavia).
Ping. Contact me via PM please.
Got the knowledge I think, but not the spunk for the hours. You wouldn’t hire 4 days a week would you :-) ?
I’m not the hiring manager, but as far as I know we don’t hire part time :(
Thanks anyways 😉 !
Weirdly, I work for an international company that does location-based pay, and the pay scales in the Netherlands are about 9% lower than those in Germany 😒
These are the payment scales in the Dutch government: https://www.caorijk.nl/cao-rijk/hoofdstuk-6/salarisschalen
My sector is scale 10 or 11 depending on starting experience. 10 grows a bit faster the first few years to reflect a junior position.
Yeah sorry, I meant the pay scales within my company - i.e. a colleague of mine moved from Germany to the Netherlands, kept the same job at the same level, and had to accept a 9% pay cut.
Oh wow. That is harsh.
Sounds more like the union is not needed at all in that sector. 2500€/month is a fine starting pay, especially if it rises so rapidly.
E12 starts at 4.170,32 € gross and up to rises 6.516,74 € depending on experience. That is gross. That is for a job, which is low stress and you can not be fired unless you pretty much commit a crime on the workplace.
Maybe government IT in Germany is low stress. Maybe the average in my country is also. But my department surely isn’t low stress. Could be because I work at a research institute that has been leading the charge into public cloud?
There’s also the possibility that the definition of stress differs. I’m in an IT position where I control most of my schedule and pace of work, I work at home without much supervision, and I’m very much a trusted employee. That means I have less body stress and other stresses than a large amount of people, but at the end of the day my mental stress can still give me headaches and wear me out (and of course real life stresses. I’m paid pretty well for the company I work at, but it’s still kinda low to be supporting myself and a family member still trying to find employment).
Here in Washington State it has had some effect. At my work, we had many people leave because their salary wasn’t on the high side of the range even though they were more senior. We also had hiccups in hiring because candidates come in asking for the high end salary but then their experience is abysmal to say the least. But then you train this person for 2 or 3 years for them to actually be of any use, and they leave because now they got something to chase a higher salary with. A small company can’t afford to raise salaries all the time, specially if it’s for people who are in training and don’t even know it. Anyway, to give you a clue, if you fuck up like 5 times and nobody gives a shit, you’re still in training. However, if you think you’re gonna fuck up and upper management call a meeting to discuss the status, then you should probably ask for a raise.
Oh but back to the topic. It’s good! And you don’t have to wait for the government to divulge it. You can legally tell anyone how much you make. And you should do that. Specially to younger people.
Article 9.5 of this directive leaves the door open for each country to decide whether or not to require companies with fewer than 100 employees […] to publish this information.
