Brute force protection

@memes

  • gibmiser@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    As a non programmer, is the joke that humans will retype their password assuming that they made a typo?

    If so, sick indeed.

    • Infynis@midwest.social
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      8 months ago

      The guy coding made it so, on your first attempt, even if you answer correctly, it will tell you your login failed due to incorrect username or password, to joke about how it feels like you always get it wrong on the first try

      • soloner@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        The logic is bugging me, though. It should be if isFirstAttempt || !isPasswordCorrect

        I understand the meme is trying to convey in spite of being correct to still return an error, but then it doesn’t account for when the password is actually incorrect.

        • QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          That defeats the brute-force attack protection…

          The idea is that brute-force attackers will only check each password once, while real users will likely assume they mistyped and retype the same password.

          The code isn’t complete, and has nothing to do with actually incorrect passwords.

        • reflectedodds@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          Like the other person said, it’s not meant to always fail the first time you enter any password.

          It is meant to fail the first time you enter the correct password.

          • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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            8 months ago

            So it should be: if password == correct and first_success == true then { login failure; first_success = false }

            Something like that.

    • NutWrench@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      I would assume that I was being phished and the attacker wanted me to re-type the password to verify that it’s correct.

  • Matriks404@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    Well, I sometimes input the same password 15-times in a row, and it works only on the last try. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

      • Rickety Thudds@lemmy.ca
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        8 months ago

        Rainbow tables and presumably newer stuff I haven’t heard of make this sort of thing weaker than it used to be

        • aname@lemmy.one
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          8 months ago

          Salting makes rainbow tables pretty much useless, and salting has been a standard practise for a few decades now.

          • Mango@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            A few? I always had an easy time cracking my mom’s desktop password with them so I guess Microsoft wasn’t doing it with XP or Vista.

        • Whelks_chance@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          How does a rainbow table help here? They’re more for decoding unsalted encrypted database tables, rather than for actually trying to login.

        • saigot@lemmy.ca
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          8 months ago

          Dictionary attacks have been around for a long time, but It’s still quite strong especially if you throw in a number.

          A fully random 8 character password has about 10^14 brute force combinations (assuming upper and lower case + the normal special characters). 4 words choosen at random from the top 3000 words (which is a very small vocabulary really) is 10^13 dictionary attack combinations, add a single number or account for variations in word style (I.e maybe don’t always use camel case) and you’ve matched the difficulty. If you use 5 words it’s 10^17 combinations.

          A password manager and a hard password is a better idea but there are cases where you can’t use a password manager (like the password to said manager).

          • Rickety Thudds@lemmy.ca
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            8 months ago

            I’m a basic little shit so, I basically use a correct horse + number password for my PW manager

          • sloppy_diffuser@sh.itjust.works
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            8 months ago

            I do a passphrase like the comic followed by 56 characters of gibberish using an https://onlykey.io/ (acts as a USB keyboard) that has a 10 digit pin (6 characters to choose from) and a kill switch pin (if I were ever forced to unlock it). I use this method for my disk encryption, main account login, and password manager.

            I also use a https://www.themooltipass.com/ for vendor diversity (4 digit pin but all hex characters). I prefer the onlykey.

            I rotate the gibberish monthly and the passphrase 2-3 times a year.

            Once a year I change up the pin codes.

            I figure that gives me enough entropy from brute force on all my systems with a balanced level of convienence and security. I literally don’t know a single one of my passwords.

        • Clent@lemmy.world
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          8 months ago

          The rainbow table would have to include every four word combination. At around half a million words in the English dictionary, that’s not a small number.

          As another XKCD comic illustrates, it’s cheaper to use a wrench.

        • OpenStars@startrek.website
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          8 months ago

          Yeah I thought about adding a note that it’s pretty outdated - and dictionary based scans were always possible even if less common in the old days - like those infamous passwords “God”, “Love”, “secret”, or like “admin”.

          The artist is pretty smart most of the time though so I presume they were aware of that possibility and meant that on a more basic level there are multiple ways to make passwords easier for a user to remember, not necessarily just this one rather simplistic take but as part of a whole approach. Then again, they didn’t say that, and instead said this, thus the controversy.

          Personally I gave up entirely and now I don’t even know what any of my own passwords are, though my password manager does:-). I guess… if you cannot beat them, join them!?:-P

          • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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            8 months ago

            My current favorite “memorizable” method (obviously a random hash from a PW manager is still better) is to take a sentence of moderate complexity that includes the name of the service you’re signing up for in it, and use the first letter of each word as your password.

            For example, “When I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is go to pawb.social.”

            Password would be “WIwuitm,tftIdigtps.”

            Easy to remember, immune to dictionary attacks, and you get a (mostly) unique password for each service, so stolen passwords can only access that one thing.

            Edit: To be clear, the value is that you can use the same sentence everywhere, switching out the name of the service to generate semi-unique passwords for each service. Obviously someone analyzing your passwords would be able to figure out the pattern, but that’s basically never what actually happens; it’s more likely someone gets 1 password and tries your email address + that PW in a variety of services, which this is strong against.

            • OpenStars@startrek.website
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              8 months ago

              I dunno, all I do is hit copy, then go to the website and hit paste, and that’s pretty easy as well:-P.

              I do need to step up my game for work though, b/c it keeps asking me a password multiple times a day so if I could rattle one off that would be better than having to open up my password manager and get it.

              • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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                8 months ago

                It’s surprisingly easy to memorize. The sentence basically acts as a mnemonic device to remember the password, and it’s a lot easier to memorize a sentence that makes sense to you than to memorize something like “Tr0ub4d0r&8”.

            • The_v@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              I have a strict, “do I give a fuck” policy when it comes to security.

              I keep the harder to crack passwords for critical things like banking, etc… since there’s only a few I can remember them. I also always use MFA.

              For all the other shit that I don’t give a fuck if it’s hacked it’s the good old *Banana$1234" type password that I reuse for decades and save to firefox’s password manager.

          • Natanael@slrpnk.net
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            8 months ago

            It’s not outdated at all, but you need more words.

            See diceware, 7 to 8 words is typically all you need

      • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        Example of what My passwords are like :
        %*7EfOLkN@6AP28!8Dl#
        or potentially if allowed :
        W@c2wYnN9J3xGcyc47#ZkHJvt&Hm%q&Ad0b&Xwz#jnl4Th%6UBexD16a$YBFc@svnVrCBxXP0EpwLp6%Gk*Lom%@Qq#DjY1zsf0CzIrHHqPc8gt4edDVsg!omj*kIsIJ
        Good luck guessing my shit.

        • smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de
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          8 months ago

          Amateur! Strong enough passwords are like:

          ÕÚüd¸2stb½õ~jëv×Â/oyÓh²î´t¶»Ö°ÍðoNVRïé2Wc4'H,CâÞó_ökÅ,Kð¡X9ÄÀ.þTØÓoæ73d*ëÞ¢?²i"`צeÉçß,ÎÅëüS.¹([)ãÒÑêf9÷¿¢=@Á×ÅQÎÂßu¸Å(iRZµîw&ãR
          
          • MeatPilot@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            That’s the stupidest combination I’ve ever heard in my life! That’s the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!

          • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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            8 months ago

            Try this on for size :

            `'�d+�t<�5mF�qrqcmv/�F��~��Yv�Om�/lK�RɏY%ɺP1�h�Ryl-G/��m�ʰ�+^)��<>�itdkaz�q2HA*1�PK�D@{9�vN.<}�~ٕ�_�26IA/cHIn����1ĈҾܒl�I9$�vA��W¸ȶW"z�}θ�x�,>~�Ux�SJZ\�5ÀI��F}nLZT�;KӚq�&NQo32y7���0"^LÎs>��j!��V��k��2O<2W�ƽYcA#8�J�Of�pهZb�%1g�w�!k*h(ʶ73�@�CC�hUsԺe!_��dR�ٞpvG|.=4{v"&.��m=_�͚DZZף�aaZ��Cq�!sG1T3�=2lb,����^�镰n)Ld]��Ϯ
            

            What’s my power level now?

            • darelik@lemmy.world
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              8 months ago

              #ENHANCE

              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            • smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de
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              8 months ago

              You lever is very low! There are not displayable characters so you cannot easly verity the password by eye or copy from paper.

              • Rustmilian@lemmy.world
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                8 months ago

                Why would I have to verify by eye? That’s what a password manager is for. And writing your passwords on paper? ಠ⁠益⁠ಠ

      • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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        8 months ago

        I suspect if the cracking code was constructed such that it had more weight on trying combinations of common words then this would be much easier to crack

        • OpenStars@startrek.website
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          8 months ago

          I would naively think that as well - you would expand your alphabet of “symbols” to include both single letters and numbers and punctuation but also common words as well. It is still a lot of combinations to have to try though, even if less than each letter by itself.

  • TORFdot0@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    If they had the password right the first try, that isn’t a brute force attack, thats a credential leak.

    • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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      8 months ago

      It should be that it rejects the password the first time it’s entered correctly but accepts it on every subsequent try. That actually would provide some protection against like dictionary attacks and raw brute force attacks.

    • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      could also work in a brute force scenario, but first attempt would be not first attempt in a set amount of time but first attempt for each password by the user in a fixed amount of time

  • Pacmanlives@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    I remember in college editing OpenSSH source code to instead of return wrong password to a root shell prompt just to stop brute force attacks

  • finkrat@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    Won’t protect against an offline attack (just will confuse the hell out of the hacker) but might confound an online attack? Until someone gets wise and runs the tool a second time. Loving the chaotic neutral vibes here.

    • zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
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      8 months ago

      It doesn’t really even protect against online attacks though. Like, if you’re going through a list of known accounts, by definition it won’t be any of those accounts’ first time logging in, right?

      And if you’re not going through a list of known accounts, good luck getting anywhere with your attack any time this millennia

  • cobra89@beehaw.org
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    8 months ago

    Not to be pedantic but wouldn’t it be IsFirstLoginWithAttemptedPassword or am I missing something?

    • chraebsli@programming.dev
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      8 months ago

      no, since it first checks if the password is correct. if it is, display error message. if it is corrent and the second time, accept the password (code not in screenshot) but if the password is wrong, it doesnt check if it is the first attempt.

        • chraebsli@programming.dev
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          8 months ago

          You can’t really prevent a brute force attack. Even if you prevent it from one IP or so, you can still do “distributed” brute force attacks.

          Also only allowing one password per 5 seconds or so per IP will not work if you have lots of users and they are at work and have the same IP.

        • pythonoob@programming.dev
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          8 months ago

          It wouldn’t stop most brute force attacks, which are not performed on the live web service, but rather on a password hasb list that was stolen via some other means.

    • piracy_is_good_xdd@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      8 months ago

      No, it’s correct - say your password gets leaked across thousands of passwords. A hacker will try to crack all of them with a program that guesses them once, which as the image suggests defeats these types of programs

  • normalexit@lemmy.world
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    8 months ago

    This is a really interesting idea, but a password manager would throw a wrench in it.

    I’d assume my password was invalidated or stored incorrectly, so I’d reset, then I’d try to log in, wtf… this website blows.