I’m at wit’s end. I’m three months into a job search like the 30-month one I went through starting four years ago, and things proceed apace. I’ve gotten zero interviews despite 20 years of experience, and even finding things I think I could stand is a fucking tall ask.
I’ve always been of the mindset that if you have a good product, shockingly little marketing is required. And that investing in the product is going to have a far larger ROI than blowing money on trying to convince people your product is better than it is. Just fucking, you know, make it better.
Which is what I’ve always done. Whether it’s a redesign or significantly better editing than the audience is used to, or infographics for stories that no one is going to comprehend from text analysis. Or, process improvement that makes employees lives better even though it may challenge the necessity of salaried positions.
I cannot and will not subscribe to this notion that lying to people for pay is an ethical career. During my one stint in marketing, I got to the point of feeling physically ill that I was making the best money in my life to write saccharine copy about products we internally mocked our customers for buying.
I honestly don’t know how I can find a job that makes life worth living at this point, which is less than ideal when ideation is always on the menu (I last got out of a psych ward in late January, and all they had to offer is “you need to stop wanting what you want.”). I don’t understand why I would want to be alive to be able to pay off debt accrued because society has already discarded me as useless.
I swear to fucking god, I cannot handle being told again that I’m wrong to have the ethics and goals in life that I do. If these do not align with the positions advertised, then the logical choice is simply removing myself from this clusterfuck.
I have provable results from things I’ve done that did align, so why does saving companies six and seven figures several times by teaching myself what I needed to to accomplish my goals over the course of my career make me a bad hire? I’ve rarely worked for competent managers, so I’m generally needed to actually get improvements done. I don’t care about my title, and I’ve topped out at $48K, so it’s not like I’m looking for $150K … but I don’t like selling myself through insipid, meaningless prose just because it’s what others want to hear.
What is the point of even being alive when everyone is telling me I’m wrong to want to accomplish things that improve the lives of people other than shareholders? They sure as fuck don’t need the money. I do, but I don’t count because I’ve not already rolled over and begged to suck at the teat of immoral people who care nothing for the rest of the world, let alone the people without whom they’d have no product in the first place.
Most of us don’t anymore. People have stopped having kids and stopped investing in their communities because work makes it impossible. I look to the future and see forty more years of hell, assuming climate disaster, preventable disease, or an impending WWIII don’t kill me first.
That’s fair, and part of my issue, to be honest. Let’s say I score an $80K job tomorrow that completely aligns … then I’m not worried about buying food, but Trump could still destroy the country this year. Climate change gave Austin the sort of Phoenix summer I flew out the morning after high school graduation to avoid ever facing again, and we’re apparently hell-bent on seeing where Atwood didn’t go far enough.
I spent half a year in a Phoenix high school as an exchange student (technically just as a student, have citizenship, just happened to be born and raised in Scandinavia), and was there through all the summer months. My sympathies.
Was going to say this.
No matter who we elect, people get poorer, health care and education get more scarce, and the legislators spend their time finding ways to spend hundreds of billions more on war.
Wage earners aren’t stupid. They haven’t had a president that is truly in their corner since Lyndon Johnson, and it shows.
There is no point in much of anything when you know definitively that your future is one of poverty no matter what you do.
I read posts like yours and I think of the turn of the old phrase “money can’t buy you happiness” to which I say “but it sure does remove an awful lot of suffering”.
Income inequality is, in my mind, the single largest contributor to all of this. If OP made as much as they should be making, and you did and I did and we all did then I think we wouldn’t have this thread. OP would afford better help than they are getting, more would be available, and I think that we wouldn’t incur so much moral injury from the positions that we are put in because they would just simply be better.
I definitely understand that life is never going to be easy, per se, but it doesn’t have to be this hard.
Don’t give up hope. Organize.
The corruption and income inequality, in this country, disgusts me.
Thank you for being an active (i.e. moderator) part of the Beehaw project. It means a lot to me considering what you are going through.
When I was going through the toughest part of my life (I’ll spare everyone the details), a friend of mine said to me: “This too shall pass”. At the time, I felt like their statement was trite and dismissive.
Once I made it out into the other side of that shit, I realized that this was one of the best things that was said to me.
What you are going through is temporary. You will overcome this. There is always light at the end of the tunnel.
Fact. The body only has objective on the day; survive. Everything else is what we add on top of our imperitive.
You woke up. You started your day as a winner. That’s been gifted to you, and unfortunately some people go out of their way to make you forget, and after enough abuse, sometimes we just do that part for them, for efficiencies sake.
In the end, entropies always going to win. If nothing else, I’ll keep winning as long as I can, and do my part in our collective chorus “Not today, Entropy, not today”.
If I could not be me, then I would be Diogenes. All y’all can get out of my sun.
my mom would tell me this a lot and did this weekend but this is the first time ive felt like i will not pass properly unscathed any more. but it will pass.
I cannot and will not subscribe to this notion that lying to people for pay is an ethical career. During my one stint in marketing, I got to the point of feeling physically ill that I was making the best money in my life to write saccharine copy about products we internally mocked our customers for buying
I hope this helps more than it hurts to hear, but there is no such thing as an ethical career. Capitalism always finds a way to usurp any meaningfully good gesture and corrupt it with a profit motive.
I work as a provider at a children’s hospital, and I get to do a lot of good. But I also get to tell people that I can’t help them, and not because I physically can’t, but because they don’t have the coverage. I am responsible for putting already economically disenfranchised families in even more debt, because Dad worked too hard and made too much money to qualify for Medicaid. The system makes us complicit.
I honestly don’t know how I can find a job that makes life worth living at this point
I don’t think anyone’s job should be the only reason they get up in the morning. Even if you had the best job in the world…a job isn’t a substitution for a life.
but I don’t like selling myself through insipid, meaningless prose just because it’s what others want to hear.
Ethics are subjective, and you have a right to stick to your own. However, I don’t think you should feel guilty or bad about guilding your resume. Most. HR managers have no idea what they’re asking for and as I said, no job is really ethical.
If my work knew about all the free healthcare I gave out, they would have some ethical complaints. And I have some ethical complaints for them pertaining to the price of healthcare. So as a compromise I give out as much free healthcare as I can get away with, and they don’t ask too many questions. Sometimes a decent compromise is the best we can do as individuals in this country.
…want to accomplish things that improve the lives of people other than shareholders…
Have you looked into jobs in higher education?
The pay could be better, but it’s not horrible. The benefits and working conditions are generally good. In my many years, I’ve never said ‘wow, that’s unethical’. Worst I’ve had is having to explain how certain policies, which sound good on the surface, are not equitable to all students in all social-economical situations and need to be revised.
Marketing, Communication, and Outreach are totally jobs in higher ed, and you’re not trying to trick someone into buying crap: https://www.higheredjobs.com/admin/search.cfm?JobCat=37&StartRow=-1&SortBy=4&NumJobs=25&filterby=&CatType=
Perhaps you should start your own consultancy company or something.
I’ve done some consulting. That introduced different client-interaction problems that led to abandoning that.
I can, in fact, do marketing, and do it with a smile (I’ve a few decades of doing so, in fact … just unpaid). I have to believe the product stands out in a positive, unique way that benefits customers.
I don’t like selling myself through insipid, meaningless prose just because it’s what others want to hear.
I have much less work and job search experience than you but I can tell you what I learned from a year of searching for junior level work where I wanted:
There are two levels of recruitment, the first one are recruiters and HR people. Having experience and industry connections can allow you to bypass or shorten the amount of time you need to deal with these people (sometimes companies force every applicant to go through this because of policy), but most of them aren’t interested in what you do or what you think of this job. They want to hear how you check the boxes that are placed in front of them. This is where you have to just make it as easy as possible to get through it, have prepared stories w/ embellishments, a fake nice attitude and reasons why you will lick company boot until it’s polished (in a nice and not-sarcastic way). You highlight what you found interesting about the job/company and what they can get out of it. If you’re starting without connections then it’s the numbers game where you throw forward applications everywhere and hope something bites to even get to here. The whole thing feels so fake and full of deception and useless work to promote yourself and I hate it.
The second level is the people you’re actually going to work with, around or under. There you still have to be positive, but you can be more genuine, they’d actually know what the job actually is, how they honestly feel about things, you can talk about things that actually matter to people working there rather than corporate overlords/shareholders (but don’t explictly give reasons against that).
You’ll be judged on both your character and whether you are as much as you said you were on your application.
Here is where you show off, or just give straight what you’ve done, what you can give and what you expect in return. This is where you ultimately decide whether you want this job assuming they didn’t wear you out with the first level.
Yeah I expect I will have enough good reputation to move up as I get experience, but the whole process is full of bullshit and I can count on it not going away entirely. It’s like you’re on a treadmill where the goal is to sell yourself but crap is being thrown at your face every hour. As unwinnable as it might feel, you’ve only lost if you give up.
To add, as for why people willingly go through this in America (and Canada and elsewhere) is because there isn’t really an alternative unless you are freelancing/self-employed, you work somewhere they take anyone with at least half a brain and two good legs, or you have a rich uncle who has a “job” for you whether you are smart and experienced or not.
Maybe marketing is not the best work for you. It is by its nature doing the least work to sell the cheapest stuff possible for the most money to people who may not need it.
My wife always says find the intersection of your greatest skills to the world’s greatest needs. I personally add… and that you can get paid for… preferably at least 2X median income. That typically means be a specialist, a manager, or run your own business.
Echoing @LoamImprovement@beehaw.org, I don’t anymore. My second biggest priority for the future is getting the fuck out of this country as soon as I have enough IT experience to find work overseas.
welcome to the other side. this shit is just a stupid game. stop playing it. live on less. stop being a consumer. invest in real estate and become as self sufficient as possible. the best way to tell the world to fuck off is to stop playing the game.
I already told the real-property world to fuck off by buying a van and living in it. The problem is the extant debt.
Don’t stress over debt to a faceless entity. Stress causes your body to age double time. Does that payment of double time lower you interest rate? Cut into your balance? No? Then stop spending currency they aren’t taking.
Imo if they have no face, they’re just make believe anyway. I could care about credit, but I don’t think credit will still be around in 7 years, not in any way that would be meaningful to me at least.
I did what both y’all did. I got some undeveloped and bought a van. I buy tools and equipment used and fix it when it breaks. Or if I need or want something else, I make it myself.
I want a tattoo (one of the easier things one could want actually)? I make a tattoo gun, collect some lampblack and mix it into tincture and get going. If you don’t know how to do any of that, you are aware of what you are holding in your hands, right?
Buying off Craigslist or marketplace means I pay as little to tax as humanly possible. Starve the beast. Grow your own food. You CAN still grow some spice walls and put em up behind yr windows. Fucking herbs cost a pretty penny. Do all the repairs on your van yourself. The learning is the point, not some resale value (which, if you’ve learnt well on good enough would prob increase). Self reliance today is rebellion. Independence in punk rock. Gardening is punk rock.
Besides stealth camping that van, you can always park on BLM land or off the side of the road in a national forest, just so you know you have that option. I’ve found stealth camping is easier street parking suburbia then attempting a business lot. You know your town so you make that call urself. But if the sheriff ges real harrass-y, just haul yr ass-y to Sherwood.
Life adrift in a van is an acquired skill all its own, and let me tell those of ya that don’t know, those vanlife influencers on YouTube and tiktok? Yea almost all of them come from money. They’ve never known a day of actual financial distress in their lives. They can’t. If you’re able to make a call and get help from family, you don’t know life on the outs. Pretending like they built their van off their wage as an orderly is so shameful, we all essentially have a free pot shot to their chin. “Slumming” with the poors for credibility. It’s fucking stolen valor, is what it is. They should try stealing some valor in the military, see what that gets em.
It’s impossible for a wealthy person to make quality art. Impossible. They are no longer relatable, and no matter how much Tay Tay or Selena might act “Normal”, they aren’t. They have teams if people who make their decisions for them. Decisions that are focused grouped on how relatable they are. Gross.
Keep on keeping on, my fellows, and for whatever it’s worth, their definition of a good life doesn’t leave them fulfilled, wise or happy, so what good does holding ourselves to their, basically lazy, measure do us?
Fuck em.
I at least have a parking spot where no one cares. The cops know I’m here, and as I don’t cause an issue, they’re on my side. Which is pretty amazing. I’m not traveling the country; this was a necessary choice.
I’m a vandweller, not a #vanlifer. I saw what was coming with the next round of rent hikes and made the call. I already knew I couldn’t keep my cat, but the new rent meant no food, and at that point, you really have to think about things. So years of thinking tiny house turned into where I now live. Is it great? No. Is it worse than a $1,500 apartment? Well, I have to take a shit at the gym.
I’m going to come at this from my own ethical and moral framework, and try to explain myself well enough to allow you to either agree or clearly see where we disagree.
I’ve always been of the mindset that if you have a good product, shockingly little marketing is required.
Marketing creates value in an ethical way when it helps match supply to demand, and reduces search friction for mutually beneficial transactions. Those mutually beneficial transactions distribute resources in a way that increases the overall utility in a society.
Thus, ethical marketing is still useful in an economy or specific markets where searching is difficult or costly. Plenty of useful products languish on the vine, and need consumer discovery in order to succeed.
As an example, some of my favorite restaurants I’ve ever eaten at have been forced to throw away food when there has been insufficient dining volume to use all those ingredients. Sometimes it’s happened enough that the restaurant fails as a business. And restaurants as an industry are terrible with getting their product known to the public. So there’s probably some benefit there in the act of marketing, advertising, and sales for those restaurants.
If you have your own ethical guideposts on which industries produce products that suffer from that problem (good product that
insufficient people know about, where producers are struggling), maybe focusing in on those fields/industries could be productive.I want to help you, but first I want to know do you need more to vent or do you want practical solutions?
I’m happy to give you either.
/Sincere
The latter is really my goal. I’m not one to be content to sit and bitch, but sometimes, so much piles up that it’s either that or another trip to the ward.
Powderhorn ( @Powderhorn@beehaw.org ) OP
Ok, so I get that marketing is kinda totally evil and causes moral injury. Have you looked into:
- UX
- Product design
- Editorial Design
- Environmental design
- Illustration
- non-profit, educational, public sector\government
I realize that the market is shit right now, but use all your advantages to get what you need.
After looking for a really long time (3yr) but only halfheartedly, I landed a job last august. One of the biggest things that helped were really luck (which you can enhance through repetition and effort) and some cleverness.
Using GPT to assist with organizing and formatting my resume, as well as crafting cover letters, proved to be highly effective for me. Theoretically, this approach is ideal for navigating the applicant tracking systems that employers use, enhancing your chances of getting hired. GPT excels at incorporating relevant buzzwords and operates as an “average-ifying engine.” When it comes to resumes and cover letters, this capability is invaluable, as it optimizes your documents to align closely with what hiring algorithms and recruiters typically look for.
also, I used GPT to make the garbage I wrote in that previous paragraph more readable (full disclosure)
Also, it can, as I did up there, act as an editor, speeding up your process SIGNIFICANTLY. If you have to apply to 100 jobs, I think some shortcuts are in order.
I hope this helps. Feel free to DM me of you need someone to bounce ideas off of :) I promise I won’t just dump your message into GPT and use it to respond to you.
As for the ward… I have a lot more experience with that than I’d prefer. It’s good to stay out, but make sure you have enough support. I’ve learned that just putting everything you don’t want to think about on a shelf in the back of your mind is… poison.
Take care, Random Internet Friend
It’s extremely difficult to have ethics while being involved in a capitalist system which is inherently unethical. Genuinely giving a damn and putting people ahead of profits is seen as a liability.
I’m sorry I don’t have any advice to give.
