The worst part is your job thinking you can work infinite hours because you dont have a kid. Its a fucked up tax.
I have a sick (but not dying) sister with 3 kids. As far as work are concerned, I visit every fortnight to help out and rush up to see them every time there’s an emergency or they need childcare.
I haven’t seen the sister in four years and only see my nephews twice a year when they visit Grandma but work don’t need to know that
Lol nice
just lie and tell them you have a kid
double down, even, and tell them the kid has a debilitating chronic disease that you regularly need to take time off work to bring to appointments and provide support for.
now you have even more free time
I’ve heard that if you let the government know about your child, they even give you free money!
I don’t feel the need to defraud the government and our limited social welfare taxes. I’ll happily tell my employer white lies about family who don’t exist, but never the government.
Would be very hard to fake a child to the government…
Do you not have a contract on how many hours you sell to your job each week?
Lunatic Americans have an honor code, who works more hours-competition to maybe one day perhaps get a promotion…
No I’m pretty sure you’re getting us Americans confused with the Japanese work ethic.
At least Japanese work ethic means you die of exhaustion at 28 to become an OP isekai protagonist.
Nope. Japanese go home at EXACTLY 5PM
Then the promotion goes to some buddy of upper management that’s only been there two months anyway.
Americans outside of trades: “Contract”? What’s that? Is that like when my employer makes me sign papers saying I can’t sue them if I get hospitalized because of their negligence?
Protip: you don’t owe your employer an explanation for turning down overtime, for refusing to do unpaid work, for refusing to pick up extra shifts, or for not being able to participate in heroics or death marches.
True, they also don’t owe you an explanation when they fire you.
They do in civilized places
Even in “at will” states (at least Ohio) you can collect unemployment if they fire you for a bullshit reason.
ARBEITNEHMERSCHUTZ SAGT NEIN
This is so god damn true. I say that as someone in my mid thirties.
To remind everyone, you are allowed to get a vasectomy for whatever reason you want. No one is forcing you to have children you don’t want, can’t afford, etc. If you’re told no, find a different fucking doctor.
Also remember, children never fix a broken relationship.
Look at this guy, with his penis, assuming everyone has a penis as well. /s
Conservatives in the US are working very hard at forcing women to have children, especially when they can’t afford them.
“Oh, you’re so young, you’ll change your mind in the future.” -Doctors when women insist they want tubal ligation
What you need to do is find yourself a lawyer who surfs so you get tubular litigation.
Children are an STD.
source: I was an STD.
STDs are treatable. Did your parents treat you well?
I don’t even need that. I don’t gamble. One of my friend’s dad had a vasectomy. It didn’t spare him living.
Would you say he looks a lot like his dad? ;)
Eyyy!
I don’t actually know.
A vasectomy was the best present I bought myself.
Very much not true in many places of the world. Vasectomies can be very hard to get.
There’s also vasagel which will hopefully be available before long.
Been hearing about that for literally a decade at this point. I check in on it every once in a while, but it never seems to make much progress
when i was in elementary or early middle school like 20ish years ago, in sex ed they said there were some male contraceptives on the horizon.
Meh, it gets a bit unsettling and empty when you get into your 40s. At least it did for me. We had a kid (much) later in life and I’m glad we did. We had our DINK fun in our 30s, and I still long for those days sometimes. But having a kid is like filling a hole you didn’t realize you had. And there are moments of joy and bonding that are simply indescribable.
Anyway, to each their own.
to each their own
This is kinda my message to OP et al. You do you, you don’t have to try to shame people who choose something else.
Admittedly, there’s a “having kids” version of CompHet, like, people sometimes have kids because they feel like they have to, like they’re supposed to, not because they want to, and that’s dumb. But those people aren’t addressed by the message of the OP, nor are they provided insight into the reality of OP’s wisdom: you don’t have to if you don’t want to.
And some parents are fucking annoying. They think they’re more important than everyone else (even their own kids) because they chose to take on more responsibility. No DINK should ever have to give up their spot in line, or work longer hours, because of your smug self-righteousness. But – again – these people aren’t addressed by OP. (And, importantly, not all parents are like that.)
I have kids and I love having kids. I have no qualms with anyone who doesn’t have kids. I sometimes have qualms with people who do have kids. Fight the real enemy.
We’re in our 40’s. Wanted kids but couldn’t have them. It was hard, and sometimes still is, but we’re the cool aunt/uncle and we’re making the best of the extra freedom and money we have.
Not trying to poke a bruise, but depending on how important it is to you, where you live, and your financial situation, you likely still have options. At least in the US there are states that require insurance to cover IVF treatments.
I’m close with two couples who live in one of those states and took advantage of that recently.
One in their late 30s, IVF worked (~2 year process for them) and they’re out ~$3k all said and done.
With the second couple, the wife was 44 when they started working with a fertility clinic, husband in his mid 30s. Unfortunately they were unable to produce any viable embryos from the wife’s eggs, and the couple couldn’t emotionally handle another egg retrieval attempt.
They still have a kid though, born when the wofe was 45. Egg donors exist just like sperm donors. So they were able to use the IVF process with donor eggs and the husband’s sperm to get an embryo, and have that implanted. The wife was able to carry their child in her womb and be pregnant.
Egg donors are expensive, they say it was ~$30k. But they do have a few more viable embryos from that on ice, so they have the potential for multiple children out of it.
The clinic the second couple used also apparently had a successful IVF pregnancy with a 50 year old.
I know four couples that just needed some medication (I think it’s just hormone pills and shots). There’s also a similar amount I know who went the adoption route.
I’m most familiar with the second IVF couple’s journey, as they tend to be open people, they more often needed someone to just listen, and one of them is related to me. Their approach struck a chord with my wife and I, and effected our own discussions on having children: “Once you’ve decided to have a kid, if that is the most important part of it to you, sometimes you just need to just work your way down your options to find out how they’ll get here”.
If you’re comfortable in your decision, if you truly know that options aren’t available for you through talks with a doctor, if you tried and found that it was just too much emotionally… I mean no shade or judgement. I just know a surprising amount of people who have had fertility issues, and people don’t tend to talk about it, so there’s a good chunk of people out there simply unaware of the chances they might have.
Apologies for the ramble. This is very near and dear to me, just hope it helps someone.
Jesus fuck, $30k just to have a geriatric pregnancy with someone else’s kid? That seems fucking insane to me… Why not just adopt? There are so many kids who need a good home out there already.
In the US at least, it really depends on adopting infants vs. foster care. Most adopt infants, and there’s generally more prospective parents than infants. Foster care tends to be more challenging, so there’s less parents willing to adopt them.
Wow, thanks for your effort and empathy. We did in fact go through two rounds of IVF. No insurance, so we did it abroad. It was cheaper, but absolutely a major financial outlay for us.
Worse than the monetary cost was the emotional one. Miscarriages are fucking horrible under ‘normal’ circumstances, but are somehow worse when you’ve put extra faith in medical professionals and the clinical process meant to greatly increase your chances of having a baby.
After the first ordeal, I begged my wife not to go through it again. Ultimately I relented since she felt so strongly that she was going to make the trip herself. I couldn’t let her do it without support. I am not bullshitting you when I say I absolutely could not do it another time.
In case you or anyone else is wondering, we were never against adoption, but it is also a difficult and expensive process, and at the time we were afraid to apply for reasons I won’t get into.
it gets a bit unsettling and empty when you get into your 40s.
that’s a mid life crisis. I’m glad having a kid helped you through it. Also a better option than running away with a hooker, maybe.
Any siblings? Let them have kids and help out. I’ve got a niece and nephew and I love them to bits, but I’m still glad they are not mine. Anyways, being an uncle/aunt? Can recommend!
Super eco friendly and anti-consumerism too.
probably the only way you can reduce your “cArBoN FoOtPriNt” in any meaningful way :P
I mean, there is that bit of French tech they invented at about the same time wealth got redistributed …
do you mean the gravity assisted wealth redistributor?
single-bladed billionaire shortener?
pulley operated monarchy foreshortener?The poor-man’s football ball maker?
The basket dyer (only dark red atm)?
The “totally-just-for-chopping-onions-in-half,-nothing-sus machine”?
Ah yes, the oversized cigar cutter
It’s a wonderful life, not having children. Well, a less shitty one, anyway.
Life with a kid has been anything but shitty but ymmv
Maybe take your kid to the doctor if no shit has been involved so far.
I wouldn’t attempt to persuade anybody to have children, but being a dad has been the best thing in my life bar none. I was that rare custodial single dad to a daughter and certain years of financial struggle aside, I wouldn’t trade the experience for all the wealth on the planet.
She’s grown now. Today it’s a friendship/mentor/advisor relationship in which we play the mentor/advisor role with each other. I give her guidance, and she does the same for me.
She has no plans to have children because she sees bringing a child into this shit stain of a timeline as a moral failure, and I’m fine with that.
She says she may adopt someday, and as the son of a mother who suffered the American foster care system, I can’t see that pursuit as anything other than noble.
But really. If you’re happy not having kids, I support that. I truly do.
I’ll conclude with this - she made me a better person, and for that, I’ll be eternally grateful.
[wipingTearsWithWadsOfMoney.gif]
The worst part of being a parent is other childrens’ parents. The kids themselves (mine at least) are great. Other people’s kids are feral though.
The friends I invite more often actually supervise their kids instead of letting them make a mess. Parents everywhere, if people never invite you and your kids, take a clue.
Not my friends kids, my kids classmates. Child led “parenting”.
That’s what everybody says… lol.
I raised my ex’s kid for a decade and parents groups are the WORST
The only reason you like your kids is the parenting hormones
Instinct not hormones, hormones areentirely different than instincts though linked. Instincts are BIOS while hormones are background processes.
As I write this, a neighbor’s child is bawling publicly outside my home.
Yeah, all parents seem to want to tell us how their life was meaningless before they had kids, but I’m good.
I’ve seen some of the most insanely inappropriate behavior from kids. Yes the fault is mainly the parents but the other day a child literally tried to take my milkshake because they could. It was awkward and if I’d been a couple steps further away I think the kid would’ve grabbed it out of the worker’s hand. The parent said nothing, probably because they spend all day every day saying no and it’s exhausting.
Is this supposed to be an argument against having children? Yes, kids sometimes misbehave. They’re tiny humans, believe it or not, and sometimes what they want and feel don’t align well with the world around them. It’s the parents job to teach them how to behave around other people, and some parents are fuckups and do not do that job well. But when parents do their job well, that is how amazing adults are made, you see. Even if the outcome can’t be guaranteed in any way.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either. But “a kid tried to steal my milkshake” is just a laughable argument.
“Kids misbehave constantly” is a pretty great reason to not want them especially when combined with like 10 more good reasons which I don’t need to list really. Do you really think that I made the decision based on a fuckin’ milkshake?? I’m sorry my example failed the test of “could a parent needlessly justifying their choices reject this”.
If you don’t want to have children, that’s fine. I don’t particularly think you should either.
Okay then why take this personally? I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t. I see that allll the time (this thread included).
You’re in the majority by a lot. You don’t need to get mad at a dissenting opinion just because it doesn’t sound (to you) based on the right example/logic/whatever.
I think it’s fair to take it personally that everywhere you look in society people are having kids and subtly shaming those who don’t.
If you read this thread I’d argue there are more people shaming people for their choice of having children (as you appear to do) than otherwise. Basically everyone here who has a kid argues “to each their own” while half of the child free people argue “you’re a selfish idiot if you have kids”. One dude literally called children an STD. Another one calls it a mental illness.This isn’t even subtly shaming.
Yeah and you’re talking about probably less than 50% of 2% of the population. Just because you see the sentiment does it make it prominent. Shaming people for not having kids is so common you could have it happen to you and barely notice it because you’re so used to it.
I didn’t take it personally and I’m not mad. I don’t care if you don’t want kids but this is a public forum and your argument is absurd. The notion that “kids constantly misbehave” is clearly based on limited experience with kids and you seem to have no understanding of parenting, meaning you have a strong opinion on something you know very little about. Which is hardly uncommon, so don’t beat yourself up about it, but still should be remarked upon when encountered.
I think the reason why this subject is so touchy is that people who never have kids can never really know what it’s like, and it cannot really be explained to them either - all parents understand this to some degree. Some things you can only learn through experience.
This is exactly the condescending bullshit that we have to put up with. You are just trying to tell yourself your kids aren’t quite as bad as anyone looking in would think.
I do not need kids to have meaning in life, and those who do need them shouldn’t force that shit down our throats.
You are very clearly the angry one in this conversation. No one cares.
I agree with the other person. I’m glad you don’t have kids too.
Never said I wasn’t angry…you should try admitting it.
No one is as glad as I am that I don’t have kids though! That’s not the weird insult you seem to think it is
It’s a pretty common sentiment that you don’t “get” having kids until it happens. They seem perfectly willing to drop it after “to each their own” but you call it condescending? The reason your comments are all in the negative is because even the other childless people think you’re a prick.
It’s beside the point, but I feel I have to tell you that my kids are lactose intolerant and would let you have your milkshake to yourself. It’s my wife you have to keep an eye on there, she loves them.
My man, I’ve been of your opinions, and I have a kid now.
What the person you’re replying to is saying isn’t condescending. He’s not saying that he is more important or more intelligent than you. He’s not saying that he necessarily has a better life than you, or that your choice not to have kids makes you lesser.
The strongest thing he’s said is that you, as someone without a kid, cannot understand the full experience of having one. Same as how (assuming you aren’t a famous actor), will never know what it’s like to be a famous actor.
It’s simple fact. Not good, not bad.
People with kids will never know what it’s like to not have kids as you get older amd more established. I’ll never know what it’s like to have a foot long schlong.
Not every kid is a little shit, just like not every man is a misogynist. There’s also the aspect that the noisy and disturbing children are going to stick our far more than any who are behaving. You don’t remember every car that drives reasonably, or every public transportation rider that ensures they aren’t a nuisance, during your commute.
Please stop projecting your personal frustration with children on the rest of the world, then getting offended when not everyone agrees.
The only reason any of you randos know anything about my opinion is that you’re projecting your need to have children onto the world. “You would never understand until you have kids!” “They change your life and make you whole!” “When are you having kids??” We’re sick of hearing it.
Good for you that you like your choice, just let me have peace with mine, it was absolutely the right choice. Many parents regret their choice, you can tell when they’re angry all the time. Don’t encourage more of that, full stop.
The next time somebody asks why I don’t want kids I’m just going to say “Because I like milkshakes” with no context whatsoever. 😂
Ah a former Redditor
There’s dozens of us 🎉
Especially since July 2023
But then you don’t get any crappy gifts on Father’s Day 🤷♂️
Says who? You can afford to get yourself a nice lego set every holiday, you ain’t got no crotch fruit taking all your moneys
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I assure you I can take care of myself when I am 85. That’s what the gun is for.
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That’s the best.
Unemployed?
not OP, but i wish. how would i afford to do what i want?
And yet here we are doing the same thing
I think the drive to have children is so illogical one might call it a mental illness. Why do you need a kid? “I dunno, it just made me feel better”. Why didn’t you adopt? “I dunno, just wanted my own”.
The adoption part really strikes a nerve with me, too. “My own,” is always how I’ve heard it and it’s so indicative of a purely self-centered reason for wanting children - it’s not about the children at all, it’s about the parent. But, that’s never what you’ll hear from a parent when they try to describe how selfless the ineffability of parental love is for their child: “I can’t explain it, you just have to be a parent to understand.” I don’t buy it, as there are countless unloved/unwanted children doomed to grow up in toxic or abusive environments, as well as many step-parents and adopted parents who clearly love their children as much as any biological parent.
I think of it as more of a fear of death and passing on your own genetics as of way of soothing that fear.
Totally devalues the kid as their own person though (common thing for parents to do).
Unfortunately, that’s exactly my observation too. Some people don’t seem to value life itself, but only if it suits them.
This is exactly it. The parenting hormones sooth the existential dread a little bit
If we could measure the essence of “this child was wanted and will be loved” I bet it would be significantly higher for adopted kids. On average, of course.
I think it’s a clear sign that it’s the selfish genes talking, puppeting your higher functions to make sure they survive. Not for any reason, but just because those are the genes most likely to continue reproducing.
It’s a bit egotistic, but I like to imagine I’ve sublimated the drive to reproduce, by helping out my friends and their kids when I can. Hehe stupid genes, you think these are your kids because the bonds of friendship getting crossed wires with direct kinship. Stupid-ass genes, you don’t even know your ride ends here.
Yeah it’s really egotistic, but it’s a fun little fiction.
“I can’t explain it, you just have to be a parent to understand.”
makes me wonder if they have tried a pet and wether or not that wasnt just exactly the same feeling
I think people don’t realize just how expensive and difficult adoption is. My ex wife and I looked into it when we were having fertility trouble. Turns out, five rounds of IVF would have been cheaper than adoption. People got used to the idea that adoption is cheap in the 80s and 90s when China, Korea, and a lot of the Eastern European states had an excess of unwanted babies. That is no longer the case and babies are very hard to come by.
So if babies are hard to come by, are the older orphans hard to come by as well? Or is it just that baby adoption is the preference?
Yeah that’s what makes it so expensive. If you’re willing to adopt an older kid it’s still pricey but not the same.
Not sure I understand. So expensive because babies are more preferred? Or are babies not that much preferred and there’s not actually that many kids in foster care/orphaned?
Still 65,000 kids waiting to be adopted in the US alone. On average.
Like, how expensive? Isn’t delivering a baby in a hospital like 10k? Is it really more difficult and expensive than 9 months of pregnancy?
Most aren’t babies, though, and lots have been through a lot. Having a baby is already a huge commitment; you can’t fault people for not wanting to take on a kid with a history of trauma or a significant disability. That’s a tall order and the people who do it are saints.
If you have insurance, it’s often not that expensive to actually have a baby. IVF is expensive though, and only sometimes covered by insurance. We were looking at $25k for one round of IVF and $5k for each subsequent round, if those were necessary. Adoption was around $50k from what I remember.
Some states require IVF coverage by medical insurance. With those prices, it may actually be cheaper in certain circumstances to move.
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It’s not just financial. It’s the longterm commitment to care for another creature. Best example is the animal adoptions during lockdown. So many of those pets ended right back in shelters because people realized they liked the idea of a pet, not the actuality. That’s a big part of the reason the barrier of entry is so high for adoption.
It’s the most basic survival instinct maybe? Jesus what a dumb fucking comment, holy shit.
I am always flabbergasted by people trying to argue that having kids is illogical, selfish, unnatural, etc. Like, the fuck you think we’ve been doing as a species for millions of years? What ya think every other living being on earth is doing?
People trying to reinvent the wheel and making something mundane unnecessarily complicated just annoy the shit out of me. No one is forcing anyone to have kids (at least in societies that don’t ban abortions). You don’t want them or don’t feel equipped to have them - no one cares. But yeah let’s make your own insecurities and traumas and whatever personal reasons you have into an ideology that promotes that creating new life is bad per se.
Having kids is neither good nor bad. It is not selfish or altruistic. It just is. There is no need in overly moralizing it.
Just because something is natural doesn’t make it rational.
The preservation of our own species is irrational, got it. Fuck off, edge lord. Please don’t ever get kids.
What a weird insult rofl
It’s like telling someone who doesn’t like drinking, “I hope you never have another beer!”
I’m guessing you’re in your early twenties and once you grow out of your edge lord phase, you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now. Unless you start over with school and take it seriously, you shouldn’t pass on your verbal diarrhea to children.
you might get the idea to procreate regardless of your bullshit opinions you have now.
Lol the arrogance. You just can’t fathom that other people think differently. You just assume anyone who doesn’t have the same weird subconscious drives as you is somehow defective. And when confronted with the illogical nature of what you believe, you get angry and defensive.
Here’s the way I see it: we are social creatures, and our relationships define a lot about us and our lives. A parent’s relationship with a child is a very significant one, which can be very rewarding in the right circumstances. We all know the cliche about “if we have a baby it will fix this relationship” and similar.
The drive to reproduce seems like an evolutionary necessity. We wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that. But that’s an instinct really, and not a rational thought-out thing.
Adoption is extremely important, but it is also the hard mode of becoming a parent. The only reason I even have a biological child is because my wife and I tried one more doctor after being a year or two into the crushing roller coaster of the adoption process, and even having a double adoption fall through.
