Context (for those who don’t know): Israel and Palestine

  • Haus
    link
    fedilink
    2109 months ago

    It worked so well when they did the same thing for themselves and Ireland.

      • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        -3
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        Because all those countries had lovely relationships among the people beforehand with absolutely no genocide and war.

        Really easy to make perfect borders that makes everyone happy.

        • @SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          249 months ago

          They weren’t countries. They became countries when the colonizers (and I’m using that term as accurately as possible) lumped together into managed regions and then told them they were countries with their own governments and flags. It was all “We’re going to conquer these people and these people and these people, then put Governor Fitzroy, nephew to the Prince, in charge of all of it with a big army to back him up.” Then they wrote laws and made flags and all the happy crappy stuff they do. Then they lost WWII (because pretty much everyone except for the US lost WWII), and said “you’re on your own.”

          They turned former colonies into artificial countries with governments that all but guaranteed factionalism.

          There was always war, and there always will be war. But the specific type of war we’re seeing in former colonies is because of the post-colonial situation.

    • dreadgoat
      link
      fedilink
      639 months ago

      It always works out fine for them. I don’t know why anybody says imperialism or colonialism are bad or destructive, seems to me that Britain and France and Spain and Portugal and the Dutch are all doing fine. Really weird how maps of their empires seem to overlap a lot with parts of the world that currently or recently experienced a lot of, idk let’s call it “troubles?” They must be dumb or smth

      • @YourFavouriteNPC@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        309 months ago

        Well, since those former colonies can’t quite work it out on their own, maybe they should just be brought back into their respective empires again? 🤔

    • Decoy321
      link
      fedilink
      23
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      They even had a nice little name for it, The Troubles Fun Times!

  • @erranto@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    1099 months ago

    Britain has planted the seeds of hatred and bloodshed in the middle east and is now acting as if it has no responsibility towards resolving the conflict.

    It is hard to watch the British media coverage of this war acting all outraged and surprised by the violence while being proud of their historical imperial inheritance .

    • CyclohexaneM
      link
      fedilink
      -339 months ago

      Palestine is not a religious entity, and have been in favor of religious coexistence since the very beginning. It is the Zionist state that is exclusive of other religions by design.

      • @Chr0nos1@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        319 months ago

        All the yelling of “Allahu akbar” while celebrating the death and destruction in Israel, would seem to be in conflict with your statement.

        • CyclohexaneM
          link
          fedilink
          19 months ago

          Israel is by its own definition the Zionist state founded on religious exclusivism. An ethnocentric state in a land inhabited by other religions and ethnicities. It should absolutely be taken down.

          religious war

          Israel is not Judaism.

          • @Flumsy@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            39 months ago

            An ethnocentric state in a land inhabited by other religions and ethnicities.

            • In land bordering the lands of lther religions and ethnicities.

            What exactly justifies the takedown of Israel? That its religion is different or what? Thats none of ghe other countries business.

            • CyclohexaneM
              link
              fedilink
              -39 months ago

              as I already said above, it is because it is an ethnoreligious state that excludes people of other ethnicities (Arabs, Africans, etc) and other religions (Muslims, Christians, etc). It has engaged in massacre and forced expulsion of those people, so it must be taken down and the genocide must cease.

              • @Flumsy@feddit.de
                link
                fedilink
                19 months ago

                ethnoreligious state that excludes people of other ethnicities (Arabs, Africans, etc) and other religions (Muslims, Christians, etc)

                So what? Thats their business what rules they want to have inside their country. Thats nl reason to attack them.

                forced expulsion of those people, so it must be taken down and the genocide must cease.

                Forced expulsion is dtill inside their own country. So you take them down with a genocide yourself? Fight fire with fire?

                • Bob
                  link
                  fedilink
                  29 months ago

                  So what? Thats their business what rules they want to have inside their country.

                  Come on…

                • CyclohexaneM
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  09 months ago

                  No it is not their business to genocide ethnic and religious minorities lmao. Would you say the same about the Nazis too? was the US justified in genociding native americans also? ridiculous.

                  Forced expulsion is dtill inside their own country

                  yes it is. I hope you dont mean that this makes it better. I may be failing to understand this genocide sympathizer logic.

                  So you take them down with a genocide yourself?

                  No. The only one committing genocide at the moment and in this conflict is Israel itself.

  • @MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    70
    edit-2
    9 months ago

    One group was actually living there and the other group moved in and literally ripped people from their homes.

  • @SwampYankee@mander.xyz
    link
    fedilink
    549 months ago

    Also Britain: Oh good, the UN voted in favor of splitting up the land except the entire Arab League voting against the plan? Ok, sounds good, bye guys, have fun!

    • Neato
      link
      fedilink
      379 months ago

      It’s like an HOA: The council is deciding how to divide up your backyard between your neighbors. The lawn owner is the only dissenting vote and then the neighborhood wonders why they are being so hostile.

      • Bipta
        link
        fedilink
        129 months ago

        Except in this case it costs you not just your backyard but basically your entire life.

    • @Microw@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      29 months ago

      Also Britain: our troops and colonial administrators are getting killed and attacked by both groups of locals, bye guys, I’m noping out of here!

    • @dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      2
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      The Ottoman Empire split after WW1, Israel/Palestine happened in 1948. No one was anticipating Hitler doing genocide in 1919. Britain hadn’t considered a plan to award Israel to the persecuted Jewish population of Europe at that point in time.

      • @SwampYankee@mander.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        119 months ago

        The Balfour Declaration was in 1917, and Britain began discussing support for the Zionist project in Palestine immediately after declaring war on the Ottoman Empire in 1914. The idea dates back to at least 1896 when Theodore Herzl proposed it as a solution to the “Jewish question” which, itself, was being asked as early as the 1750s.

        • @Espi@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          99 months ago

          I cant believe it, someone who actually knows what they are speaking about?? in my imitation Reddit forum???

          Let’s not forget that Britain also ensured the rights of Palestinians in that same declaration, I would like to see them act on that one.

      • @Microw@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        49 months ago

        The meme is wrong though and should say WW1, not WW2. The creation of the State of Israel has nothing to do with the Holocaust, all of it was planned before WW2.

  • @jarfil@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    239 months ago

    Alternate caption: “Zionists smuggling in settlers before the British mandate ended to have enough votes to create a State of Israel as a safe haven for Holocaust refugees, then getting populated mostly by Jews fleeing Arab countries out of fear of retaliation for having created the State of Israel a day early and having pushed most Palestinians out by force”

      • I'm back on my BS 🤪
        link
        fedilink
        English
        209 months ago

        Interesting info and I’m not arguing against your point, but that source doesn’t address their point at all. The cited source covers recent demographics. The previous user is referring to events that occurred in 1947ish. The time periods are not close enough to be relevant to each other, especially considering the massive changes that occurred throughout that period in the area.

        That’s kind of like if someone said that the Caribbean was entirely populated by natives when the Europeans showed up in 1492, and someone responded with demographics from the 1570s after the Spanish had established settlements in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Trinidad, and conquered the Aztecs to dismiss the initial point. The demographics are going to be vastly different. It kind of sheds doubt onto your rebuttal since there seems to be a logical disconnect.

        Does anyone have any sources on the demographics right before the British invited Jewish people to move to the Levant?

      • @Shrike502@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        -29 months ago

        Ashkenazim have European surnames because Europeans literally forced them unto Jews. Austro-Hungary, Russian Empire - both had policies for giving Jews “local” surnames (for taxation purposes). It’s how you get Jews with German surnames in eastern and central Europe (i.e.the ones you have listed), and how you get Jews with Ukrainian and Russian-ish surnames in the appropriate areas (see Abramovich, Litvak)

        • And they did so in Europe. Which means that people with this family names were Jews coming from Europe to Israel and not from Arabic countries like the comment above claimed.

      • @MildlyArdvark
        link
        89 months ago

        I guess technically ww1 wasn’t even over.

    • @Haagel@lemmings.world
      link
      fedilink
      -249 months ago

      Lol at all of the wannabe thirteen year old edgleords on lemmy who are so confident that they understand this extremely complicated and protracted conflict such that they can reduce it to a single generic cause but can’t even be bothered to look up which of the two world wars is the correct one to reference for their edgy meme.

      • Yeah sure. There is absolutely no pattern of former colonizers creating structures that lead to tensions and violence as they leave. Destabilizing entire regions would never be in the interest of receding former global powers or in the interest of current global powers. They all want all the humans in the world to love each other and live in peace and harmony.

      • @ryathal@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        09 months ago

        It’s not that complicated, the land in question has been owned by a conquering empire for the better part of two millenia. After WWII and emipres falling out of favor, splitting it up was decided. The locals didn’t like the jews getting a country and attacked, they lost. They mobilized for round two, and Israel hit first and won again. Since then Israel started giving back land it seized to the respective countries, in exchange for not attacking again. The region has been at an uneasy truce for 50ish years other than Palestine launching terrorist attacks every few years.

    • @Rooty@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      -5
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      Even animals patrol and defend their territory. Why should human be any different? If anything else, borders are an improvement over constant skirmishes and raids where two different ethnic groups meet.

      EDIT: Interesting how you completely ignored the “Borders are a solution to constant ethnic clashes” part of my comment

      • @Killing_Spark@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        59 months ago

        Interesting how you ignore the reality of constant ethnic clashes and raids inside the borders of many african nations and also across borders e.g. Armenia vs Azerbaijan, Kosovo vs Serbia, Russia vs Ukraine or… Palestine vs Israel.

      • The animals argument is bad. We are animals and the idea is to refrain of our bad instincts in favour of the greater good most of the time.

        That being said abolition of borders is a very bad idea, a very basic visit of human history will squash any misplaced idealism regarding that subject.

        That also being said immigration is most of the time a good idea as long as you put a consideratr effort into integration for your newly minted citizens.

        Now I realize most of those are opinions without substance, the idea is to realize where people push back and why before backing them up.

      • @Killing_Spark@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        49 months ago

        “animals do it why shouldn’t we” is one of the worst reasons to do something. Animals are literally dumber than us.

      • @Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
        link
        fedilink
        -19 months ago

        The reason ethnic clashes are happening in the first place, is because there was not enough intermingling between neighbors, in big part because people like you thought humans aren’t smarter then animals and should be separated.

        • @Gabu@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          -29 months ago

          Humans aren’t smarter than animals because we are animals. We’re also not smarter than non-human animals either, as evidenced by our self-destructive behavior.

      • @ssboomman@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        -29 months ago

        The animals argument is fucking stupid.

        How exactly are borders helping? In what was specifically?

  • YTG123
    link
    fedilink
    169 months ago

    This war really makes you hate Britain (and possibly France) for causing unrest in the first place

        • @Sunfoil@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          -19 months ago

          Not for the Jews. Zionism and Islamic anti-Semitism and the violence from these movements predates the British trying to find a solution. However mishandled it was. They are two ideologies fundamentally opposed to one another, and they are incapable of coexistence in their current forms.

    • Jose
      link
      fedilink
      39 months ago

      Every should know about the Sykes–Picot Agreement, it’s one of those treaties/laws that have long lasting consequences in the current world (same with ww2 agreements).

  • Joliflower
    link
    fedilink
    19 months ago

    France and England seeing their current new citizens and wondering if it was worth it to fight.

  • sweetpotato
    link
    fedilink
    15 months ago

    “promising to give two different groups”? You mean the natives and the colonisers? Tf is this “meme”?

  • JoYo
    link
    fedilink
    English
    -39 months ago

    It was still a better plan than the ottoman empire had before Britain took it from them.

    • CyclohexaneM
      link
      fedilink
      89 months ago

      Yeah, genocide turned out to be much better alternative right?

      Either way, the Ottoman empire was on its way out, and the Arabs sought to establish a United state. So whatever the ottomans were doing is irrelevant.