Neoliberalism leads to fascism. Not like in a cartoonish they sit around in some fortress of evil planning a Nazi takeover.
Neoliberalism all over western society has shown itself ineffective at meeting people’s needs.
Neoliberalism wants free markets and limited governments. This leads to capital gaining a huge amount of power because the government categorically doesn’t want to regulate them. That power eventually turns to exploitation of the citizens and capture of the government.
Exploited citizens with an ineffective government get frustrated with a system that’s not meeting their needs. This is the dry tinder in which fascism catches fire, a charismatic person shows up and says “give me unlimited power and I can fix this quagmire you are in” and a lot of people go “fuck it, it can’t be worse than this” and you get a fascist dictator.
Neoliberalism leads to fascism not because they are the same but because neoliberalism creates the perfect environment for fascism to sprout and grow.
I would argue that fascism is more of a response by the elites to prevent citizen’s frustrations from becoming revolution. While fascism certainly uses populism to get power initially, it does not rise organically from the people, but is rather imposed by the ruling class.
I think we’re mostly agreeing, but it’s important to explicitly point out that fascism is a tool of class warfare. This explains why Democratic leadership is mostly just standing by and watching - they are also members of the elite (or are bought/controlled by the elite), so they are terrified that regular people will demand change that removes them from their high tower.
I think that’s part of the issue with neoliberalism, since it doesn’t care to reign in the abuses of the elites.
It’s interesting how the frustrated masses though are so ready to pick someone that’s clearly on the side of the ruling class.
I think that’s the part which might be more prominent in western culture right now. This paradox where people’s lives are made worse every day by businesses, businesses jacking up their rent, businesses gouging prices, businesses invading their privacy. And they finally have enough and go “we need someone to come in and run this country like a business.”
It’s amazing to watch millions of people have legitimate complaints and be completely unable to identify the source of their misery, so much that they hand it even more power.
Even more astounding to me is the large segment of the population who know that Trump is fascist and trying to become a dictator, yet can’t even be bothered to show up at a protest for two hours on a Saturday afternoon.
Literally all of my family and friends except for my partner (I’m so lucky there) fall into this category. Only two friends have attended a protest with me. One was clearly there just for the experience and the other was complaining the whole time that the protest won’t do anything.
You know who has been showing up in my area? The fucking boomers. It really feels like my generation is still waiting for mommy to fix the world for us.
Here are some facts we have to accept about the world first
as long as authoritarians point their abuses inwards there’s no amount that causes the international community to put a stop to it, especially not against the United States.
those with authoritarian power rarely surrender it willingly
institutions do not historically stop fascism
So we are already down the road, whether we collectively want to admit it or not.
Here are some things you can do that might lessen some damage but are unlikely to stop the train
vote for neoliberals. Go for it, it’s better than the alternative. But if putting neoliberals into power stopped fascism, then electing Biden in 2020 wouldn’t have been followed with trump in 2024
protest, at least the peaceful do nothing protests that are allowed here. If your protest doesn’t make those with power worry then it’s almost really a protest but a state sanctioned pressure relief.
I would consider myself further left than any party and I hear people that share my views say that you should organize and build community solidarity. These are nice things, we should care for our neighbors and through tough times community can be a major source of strength. Not super likely to topple fascism but could make living through it better.
I see 3 scenarios where fascism fades into, well not really the background but the middle ground.
Trump dies. He’s an old sick man, if he dies there will be plenty attempting to take the mantle up. Apple is still Apple without Steve Jobs but there not really a Steve Jobs replacement.
Trump starts stupid wars. Stupid here being war with NATO, like trying to take Greenland by force. A war with Iran is also stupid but unlikely to turn people against him.
Sustained general strike. This could actually work but the people of this country dont seem to have it in them.
I think we should also understand that the ability to maintain an authoritarian state has improved since Hitler and Mussolini. Hungary, Turkey, the Russian Federation are all examples of effectively authoritarian dictatorships wearing the trappings of democracy to some degree.
America has long been a nation bought by lobbyists to do the bidding of the wealthy. It’s not too crazy to think that we end up just zombie marching along with just enough trappings of democracy to say “it’s not too bad yet” for a long time. We have the national guard occupying US cities while a masked police force abducts people off the streets and illegally traffics them to other nations to be imprisoned without due process and disappeared. There are many red lines that have been crossed that could have been when people stood up, but everyone is waiting for something. That thing might never come.
I pose this question to leftists a lot. I rarely see a realistic take, so thank you for taking the time to type out something that isn’t the usual performative or delusional nonsense like “Creating a new party, one which recognizes xenogenders and native American LGBTQ issues, issues which hard-working Americans really care about” or the other extreme which seems to involve young people not thinking they’re going to live to 40 anyway, so nothing matters, retreat to fantasy and their discord servers.
I would maintain this:
we should care for our neighbors and through tough times community can be a major source of strength
Actually has a LOT more power to topple fascism. And I am speaking from my experience actually talking to people who have done it, it always starts in neighborhoods, in towns and counties (or the foreign equivalents they had) and this is also such a threat to the forces of capital trying to gain power through fascism that it’s the one thing they are knowingly or instinctively working hardest to squash down, with substitutes for social interaction, luxuries and conveniences that let us order everything we need from home, suburbs and single-family homes, etc.
But I am doing my best to drive this home to liberals and leftists broadly. They need to hear it the most, because the Right has already done this to fantastic effect. This is why they are pulling in lonely guys and every social reject, they give people a sense of belonging and community because their entry requirements are almost non-existent as long as you buy into the latest narrative.
Sustained general strike.
You are right, nobody has the heart or drive to do this to the degree that would be required to actually stop the gears. America is the heart of the world still in terms of economic and military might, it would take a LOT to get enough people to work together to grind it to a halt.
BUT, we can cause pain. Look at Target. Look at Las Vegas. Imagine doing this on a large enough scale that corporate lines start stalling even a little. And it takes doing the hard thing and smart thing right now, which is saving money. I know so many suburban families who claim to live paycheck-to-paycheck and never factor in their coffee shop trips, their new phones, their movie and entertainment subscriptions, their new video games, their new shoes, and so on. While there are necessities for families to function, not many people really cut back where it hurts. Many are already at the edge of their means, and I don’t mean them, I mean the middle-ish class suburbs that make up America’s money-basket that the mosquitoes feed on. Just get enough people to cut back on spending and you start taking the money out of the hands of the oligarchs and Musks of the world.
Now is a really, really good time to quit vaping, pot and alcohol. That little background voice that says “We will quit and get healthy someday”? Now is the time to listen to it. We may need the physical health too, depending how bad it gets.
Community connections will be required to get us through a general strike. A strike is not something to go into lightly or without proper preparation, so start now.
P. S. In leu of a non-existent labor union, here’s https://generalstrikeus.com/ Sign a strike card and spread the word.
Or, if you don’t like roleplay, you can get involved in your local and county elections, push candidates that lean towards social reform and socialist platforms, even if slightly, because that’s literally the best we can fucking hope for, so every time you kids splinter off and decide to start like, saluting Soviet flags and shit, you’re just wheeling the whole cart backwards.
Because they don’t all do that. A lot of organizations dedicated to more niche politics just do really cringe ceremonial/performative stuff, and do all their activism and mobility online, or have really deluded ideas that a predominantly liberal/conservative country is going to get behind costumed tankies and the like.
We have to use the system as it is to change the system, we don’t get to C without passing A and B first.
Yeah. Newsom trolling Trump is funny as hell. He is still a piece of shit, though.
Grade A shitposter
I’m laughing. But I haven’t forgotten hes a transphobe
Not a Fascist piece of shit though
Gavin is a continuation of the same type of Neoliberalism that made people apathetic enough to let Trump win.
Neoliberal control of the left leads to fascism
I wish people could really understand this.
Neoliberalism leads to fascism. Not like in a cartoonish they sit around in some fortress of evil planning a Nazi takeover.
Neoliberalism all over western society has shown itself ineffective at meeting people’s needs.
Neoliberalism wants free markets and limited governments. This leads to capital gaining a huge amount of power because the government categorically doesn’t want to regulate them. That power eventually turns to exploitation of the citizens and capture of the government.
Exploited citizens with an ineffective government get frustrated with a system that’s not meeting their needs. This is the dry tinder in which fascism catches fire, a charismatic person shows up and says “give me unlimited power and I can fix this quagmire you are in” and a lot of people go “fuck it, it can’t be worse than this” and you get a fascist dictator.
Neoliberalism leads to fascism not because they are the same but because neoliberalism creates the perfect environment for fascism to sprout and grow.
I would argue that fascism is more of a response by the elites to prevent citizen’s frustrations from becoming revolution. While fascism certainly uses populism to get power initially, it does not rise organically from the people, but is rather imposed by the ruling class.
I think we’re mostly agreeing, but it’s important to explicitly point out that fascism is a tool of class warfare. This explains why Democratic leadership is mostly just standing by and watching - they are also members of the elite (or are bought/controlled by the elite), so they are terrified that regular people will demand change that removes them from their high tower.
I agree with you there.
I think that’s part of the issue with neoliberalism, since it doesn’t care to reign in the abuses of the elites.
It’s interesting how the frustrated masses though are so ready to pick someone that’s clearly on the side of the ruling class.
I think that’s the part which might be more prominent in western culture right now. This paradox where people’s lives are made worse every day by businesses, businesses jacking up their rent, businesses gouging prices, businesses invading their privacy. And they finally have enough and go “we need someone to come in and run this country like a business.”
It’s amazing to watch millions of people have legitimate complaints and be completely unable to identify the source of their misery, so much that they hand it even more power.
Even more astounding to me is the large segment of the population who know that Trump is fascist and trying to become a dictator, yet can’t even be bothered to show up at a protest for two hours on a Saturday afternoon.
Literally all of my family and friends except for my partner (I’m so lucky there) fall into this category. Only two friends have attended a protest with me. One was clearly there just for the experience and the other was complaining the whole time that the protest won’t do anything.
You know who has been showing up in my area? The fucking boomers. It really feels like my generation is still waiting for mommy to fix the world for us.
Okay so what do we do.
It’s a good question.
Here are some facts we have to accept about the world first
So we are already down the road, whether we collectively want to admit it or not.
Here are some things you can do that might lessen some damage but are unlikely to stop the train
I would consider myself further left than any party and I hear people that share my views say that you should organize and build community solidarity. These are nice things, we should care for our neighbors and through tough times community can be a major source of strength. Not super likely to topple fascism but could make living through it better.
I see 3 scenarios where fascism fades into, well not really the background but the middle ground.
I think we should also understand that the ability to maintain an authoritarian state has improved since Hitler and Mussolini. Hungary, Turkey, the Russian Federation are all examples of effectively authoritarian dictatorships wearing the trappings of democracy to some degree.
America has long been a nation bought by lobbyists to do the bidding of the wealthy. It’s not too crazy to think that we end up just zombie marching along with just enough trappings of democracy to say “it’s not too bad yet” for a long time. We have the national guard occupying US cities while a masked police force abducts people off the streets and illegally traffics them to other nations to be imprisoned without due process and disappeared. There are many red lines that have been crossed that could have been when people stood up, but everyone is waiting for something. That thing might never come.
I pose this question to leftists a lot. I rarely see a realistic take, so thank you for taking the time to type out something that isn’t the usual performative or delusional nonsense like “Creating a new party, one which recognizes xenogenders and native American LGBTQ issues, issues which hard-working Americans really care about” or the other extreme which seems to involve young people not thinking they’re going to live to 40 anyway, so nothing matters, retreat to fantasy and their discord servers.
I would maintain this:
Actually has a LOT more power to topple fascism. And I am speaking from my experience actually talking to people who have done it, it always starts in neighborhoods, in towns and counties (or the foreign equivalents they had) and this is also such a threat to the forces of capital trying to gain power through fascism that it’s the one thing they are knowingly or instinctively working hardest to squash down, with substitutes for social interaction, luxuries and conveniences that let us order everything we need from home, suburbs and single-family homes, etc.
But I am doing my best to drive this home to liberals and leftists broadly. They need to hear it the most, because the Right has already done this to fantastic effect. This is why they are pulling in lonely guys and every social reject, they give people a sense of belonging and community because their entry requirements are almost non-existent as long as you buy into the latest narrative.
You are right, nobody has the heart or drive to do this to the degree that would be required to actually stop the gears. America is the heart of the world still in terms of economic and military might, it would take a LOT to get enough people to work together to grind it to a halt.
BUT, we can cause pain. Look at Target. Look at Las Vegas. Imagine doing this on a large enough scale that corporate lines start stalling even a little. And it takes doing the hard thing and smart thing right now, which is saving money. I know so many suburban families who claim to live paycheck-to-paycheck and never factor in their coffee shop trips, their new phones, their movie and entertainment subscriptions, their new video games, their new shoes, and so on. While there are necessities for families to function, not many people really cut back where it hurts. Many are already at the edge of their means, and I don’t mean them, I mean the middle-ish class suburbs that make up America’s money-basket that the mosquitoes feed on. Just get enough people to cut back on spending and you start taking the money out of the hands of the oligarchs and Musks of the world.
Now is a really, really good time to quit vaping, pot and alcohol. That little background voice that says “We will quit and get healthy someday”? Now is the time to listen to it. We may need the physical health too, depending how bad it gets.
Community connections will be required to get us through a general strike. A strike is not something to go into lightly or without proper preparation, so start now.
P. S. In leu of a non-existent labor union, here’s https://generalstrikeus.com/ Sign a strike card and spread the word.
Very good point and thank you for the link, it would be amazing if it does something but it’s a chip worth keeping out there.
Join a Marxist organization and build a socialist revolution. Communists are historically the most effective weapon against fascism.
Or, if you don’t like roleplay, you can get involved in your local and county elections, push candidates that lean towards social reform and socialist platforms, even if slightly, because that’s literally the best we can fucking hope for, so every time you kids splinter off and decide to start like, saluting Soviet flags and shit, you’re just wheeling the whole cart backwards.
Joining socialist organizations doesn’t mean abandoning local politics. If anything, it means getting more involved.
Sure, go for it, if that’s what they actually do.
Because they don’t all do that. A lot of organizations dedicated to more niche politics just do really cringe ceremonial/performative stuff, and do all their activism and mobility online, or have really deluded ideas that a predominantly liberal/conservative country is going to get behind costumed tankies and the like.
We have to use the system as it is to change the system, we don’t get to C without passing A and B first.
Exactly. Fascist-lite isn’t all that better than Fascism itself, especially when it inevitably leads to the other.
So when the other side uniformly votes for a full Fascists who do we vote?
With our hearts, a third party candidate?
Someone who is not a republican or democrat probably
And so the Fascists win again because we don’t have a Perfect Candidate 😖
Yes, and we should have organized for it 20yrs ago
Looks like those apathetic people were wrong, but like everyone else they’ll never admit it
You still think everyone is gonna just randomly do what’s best.
Awwww
Americans are stupid animals and Democrats are too dumb to appeal to stupid animals, that’s why they lose.