No. If there is any hope of actual survival, that comes before all else. Accepting the slow death of “voting blue no matter who” means that there is no possibility of averting fascism whatsoever. It is an inevitability that if the only side representing “the left” is associating itself with a declining status quo while refusing to do any of the things necessary to keep that status quo functional, them people will abandon it, and if the only ones offering an alternative are the far-right, then they are the ones who will win. There is no hope of survival whatsoever.
There are, however, two possibilities that do offer some slim hope of surviving. One is that the Democratic party can be pressured into doing the basic, minimal tasks of governance necessary to avert fascism - tasks that they will never simply choose to do of their own volition. The second is that the left can establish a credible alternative outside of the organization of the Democratic party, whether electorally or otherwise. Both of those objectives are furthered by voting third party when the Democrats are offering someone insultingly unacceptable, while “voting blue no matter who” flies directly contrary to both goals.
You’re thinking of it as doing chemo when there’s no cure. That’s not what this is. This is deciding to just take a nice little nap in the comfy snow because your legs are so tired and you’ll totally get up again in just a few minutes, rather than choosing to get up and push forward through the darkness in the hope, however slim, of finding an actual shelter.
This “buying time to organize” line is constantly thrown around, I don’t buy it as sincere at all, for starters. But regardless, time is not on our side, buying time only means allowing conditions to deteriorate further, it’s just procrastinating and kicking the can down the line. And how do you effectively organize an alternative to the status quo and present yourself as separate from it while simultaneously trying to rally around it and supporting it unconditionally? It’s nonsense.
This “buying time to organize” line is constantly thrown around, I don’t buy it as sincere at all, for starters.
I’ve heard that line for close to 30 years. So, when is that organizing supposed to start? When things get so uncomfortable that we have no choice? Not sure how that’s materially different than the accelerationist position, except that it means fighting the proverbial 800lb. silverback gorilla instead of an adolescent.
You’re thinking of it as doing chemo when there’s no cure. That’s not what this is. This is deciding to just take a nice little nap in the comfy snow because your legs are so tired and you’ll totally get up again in just a few minutes, rather than choosing to get up and push forward through the darkness in the hope, however slim, of finding an actual shelter.
No, they were right. Chemo is the right analogy. Fascism is cancer, liberalism is chemo, leftism is the cure. Cancer kills, chemo is miserable but it’s better than dying of cancer, and a cure isn’t ready yet. Your options are to die of cancer waiting for the perfect cure, or doing chemo to live long enough to maybe see that cure.
This “buying time to organize” line is constantly thrown around, I don’t buy it as sincere at all, for starters.
It’s constantly “thrown around” because it’s true. Your posturing as the sincerity police doesn’t change that fact. The Dems told Palestinian activists to wait their turn to talk, MAGA stripped their degrees, arrested, and deported them. It’s easier to organize on the sidelines than from prison.
But regardless, time is not on our side,
Exactly, because of the idealists who refused to help buy more
buying time only means allowing conditions to deteriorate further, it’s just procrastinating and kicking the can down the line.
No, conditions are deteriorating either way. Buying time is just slowing that deterioration, so enough structure remains to build upon.
And how do you effectively organize an alternative to the status quo and present yourself as separate from it while simultaneously trying to rally around it and supporting it unconditionally?
It’s not unconditional, it’s based on two conditions: as long as fascism is getting enough votes to win, and as long as there’s no viable alternative. I see plenty of suggested alternatives, but none that are viable. This mindset vastly overestimates the political will of the average voter, and vastly underestimates the time and effort necessary to effectively organize an alternative.
People aren’t just going to spontaneously rally around a vague impetus for revolution. Certainly not enough people to actually succeed. They need to see a specific plan of action, organization, and popularity. Third party candidates pulling <1% aren’t it. You’re suggesting a cancer patient replace their chemo with keto and essential oils.
When there’s a cure, I’ll be behind it 100%. Until then, I’m sticking with chemo so I can live long enough to see a cure.
I’ve tried reasoning with you before so I know you won’t listen, you are a devout believer in voting blue no matter who and I’d have about as much luck trying to reason with you as if I tried to convince my parents to become atheists.
Everything you say is wrong, and your words constantly show your true beliefs that you refuse to admit. For example, “The Dems told Palestinian activists to wait their turn to talk,” when in fact they disrupted protests through force, arrested many of them, denounced them as antisemites, and refused to give even the token gesture of allowing a Palestinians speaker at the convention. You don’t mind any of that, because despite what you’ll say, you don’t care about the issue.
I have no interest in discussing anything further with you.
I’m a devout believer in voting blue no matter who until there is a better alternative.
The problem, fundamentally, is that you have no plan (and actively opposed plans) to make an alternative come into reality. Because you are a liberal who supports what we already have. Where there’s a will, there’s a way, but when there isn’t a will, there certainly isn’t a way - this is why you cannot find any alternative to voting blue no matter who unconditionally, forever (no matter how much you try to weasel that you don’t), because you don’t actually want to find an alternative, because you’re not in the market for one at all.
But, as a liberal, you can’t actually stand for anything, even liberalism. You exaxtly fit MLK’s description of the white moderate who is always saying, “I agree with your goals but I disagree with your methods” and is always telling people to “wait for a more convenient time.” We’ve been through this and I will not entertain your pretenses of being any sort of leftist.
Nope. I can remember you now, the moment someone on the left criticizes your deeply flawed attempt at praxis, you turn into the sincerity police and declare them to be liberals. This is extremely transparent
The problem, fundamentally, is that you have no plan (and actively opposed plans) to make an alternative come into reality.
False. I am actively opposed to bad plans. I care more about actually securing a leftist government than about virtue signaling to online revolutionary cosplayers, which means I focus more on material solutions than lofty ideology.
Because you are a liberal who supports what we already have.
False, I’m simply aware of what we already have, and which actions are incapable of changing it.
Where there’s a will, there’s a way, but when there isn’t a will, there certainly isn’t a way
Precisely my point. The American people lack the will. Maybe that will change, but for now that is the case.
this is why you cannot find any alternative to voting blue no matter who unconditionally, forever (no matter how much you try to weasel that you don’t), because you don’t actually want to find an alternative, because you’re not in the market for one at all.
Once again, false. But again, I’m not in the market for ineffective virtue signal “alternatives” like protest voting third party in the general election. I’m in the market for effective alternatives, like democratizing workplaces and building grassroots campaigns in local elections so that one day we can have a viable leftist candidate in the general election.
You exaxtly fit MLK’s description of the white moderate who is always saying, “I agree with your goals but I disagree with your methods” and is always telling people to “wait for a more convenient time.” We’ve been through this and I will not entertain your pretenses of being any sort of leftist.
Which would have come close to an interesting point if your methods worked. But they don’t. It’s not liberalism to reject counterproductive methods. I don’t consider anyone who abandons the material dialectic for ideological grandstanding to be a leftist. You are a cosplayer with a romanticized vision of revolution, and none of the tact or organization so essentially necessary to enact that revolution.
Which is why I came to a hostile community to criticize ineffective ideological purity and get called a liberal? Who exactly am I signaling virtue to here?
Didn’t say it was the cure. Chemo isn’t the cure for cancer, it’s a treatment. Baby tigers lead to adult tigers, but I’d rather be locked in a tiger cage with a baby than an adult.
but that’s not the option. it’s being locked in a tiger den, and you’re choosing to play with the cub. you should be trying to get out of the den or kill the tigers.
How do you figure? Getting out of the cage and killing the tiger are both tasks which are easier to do when trapped with a baby tiger than an adult one.
No. If there is any hope of actual survival, that comes before all else. Accepting the slow death of “voting blue no matter who” means that there is no possibility of averting fascism whatsoever. It is an inevitability that if the only side representing “the left” is associating itself with a declining status quo while refusing to do any of the things necessary to keep that status quo functional, them people will abandon it, and if the only ones offering an alternative are the far-right, then they are the ones who will win. There is no hope of survival whatsoever.
There are, however, two possibilities that do offer some slim hope of surviving. One is that the Democratic party can be pressured into doing the basic, minimal tasks of governance necessary to avert fascism - tasks that they will never simply choose to do of their own volition. The second is that the left can establish a credible alternative outside of the organization of the Democratic party, whether electorally or otherwise. Both of those objectives are furthered by voting third party when the Democrats are offering someone insultingly unacceptable, while “voting blue no matter who” flies directly contrary to both goals.
You’re thinking of it as doing chemo when there’s no cure. That’s not what this is. This is deciding to just take a nice little nap in the comfy snow because your legs are so tired and you’ll totally get up again in just a few minutes, rather than choosing to get up and push forward through the darkness in the hope, however slim, of finding an actual shelter.
This “buying time to organize” line is constantly thrown around, I don’t buy it as sincere at all, for starters. But regardless, time is not on our side, buying time only means allowing conditions to deteriorate further, it’s just procrastinating and kicking the can down the line. And how do you effectively organize an alternative to the status quo and present yourself as separate from it while simultaneously trying to rally around it and supporting it unconditionally? It’s nonsense.
I’ve heard that line for close to 30 years. So, when is that organizing supposed to start? When things get so uncomfortable that we have no choice? Not sure how that’s materially different than the accelerationist position, except that it means fighting the proverbial 800lb. silverback gorilla instead of an adolescent.
Okay but have ypu considered that suggesting i shouldn’t want to die is ageist and attacking my culture? Whos the real imperialist, huh, boomer?
No, they were right. Chemo is the right analogy. Fascism is cancer, liberalism is chemo, leftism is the cure. Cancer kills, chemo is miserable but it’s better than dying of cancer, and a cure isn’t ready yet. Your options are to die of cancer waiting for the perfect cure, or doing chemo to live long enough to maybe see that cure.
It’s constantly “thrown around” because it’s true. Your posturing as the sincerity police doesn’t change that fact. The Dems told Palestinian activists to wait their turn to talk, MAGA stripped their degrees, arrested, and deported them. It’s easier to organize on the sidelines than from prison.
Exactly, because of the idealists who refused to help buy more
No, conditions are deteriorating either way. Buying time is just slowing that deterioration, so enough structure remains to build upon.
It’s not unconditional, it’s based on two conditions: as long as fascism is getting enough votes to win, and as long as there’s no viable alternative. I see plenty of suggested alternatives, but none that are viable. This mindset vastly overestimates the political will of the average voter, and vastly underestimates the time and effort necessary to effectively organize an alternative.
People aren’t just going to spontaneously rally around a vague impetus for revolution. Certainly not enough people to actually succeed. They need to see a specific plan of action, organization, and popularity. Third party candidates pulling <1% aren’t it. You’re suggesting a cancer patient replace their chemo with keto and essential oils.
When there’s a cure, I’ll be behind it 100%. Until then, I’m sticking with chemo so I can live long enough to see a cure.
I’ve tried reasoning with you before so I know you won’t listen, you are a devout believer in voting blue no matter who and I’d have about as much luck trying to reason with you as if I tried to convince my parents to become atheists.
Everything you say is wrong, and your words constantly show your true beliefs that you refuse to admit. For example, “The Dems told Palestinian activists to wait their turn to talk,” when in fact they disrupted protests through force, arrested many of them, denounced them as antisemites, and refused to give even the token gesture of allowing a Palestinians speaker at the convention. You don’t mind any of that, because despite what you’ll say, you don’t care about the issue.
I have no interest in discussing anything further with you.
Removed by mod
The problem, fundamentally, is that you have no plan (and actively opposed plans) to make an alternative come into reality. Because you are a liberal who supports what we already have. Where there’s a will, there’s a way, but when there isn’t a will, there certainly isn’t a way - this is why you cannot find any alternative to voting blue no matter who unconditionally, forever (no matter how much you try to weasel that you don’t), because you don’t actually want to find an alternative, because you’re not in the market for one at all.
But, as a liberal, you can’t actually stand for anything, even liberalism. You exaxtly fit MLK’s description of the white moderate who is always saying, “I agree with your goals but I disagree with your methods” and is always telling people to “wait for a more convenient time.” We’ve been through this and I will not entertain your pretenses of being any sort of leftist.
Nope. I can remember you now, the moment someone on the left criticizes your deeply flawed attempt at praxis, you turn into the sincerity police and declare them to be liberals. This is extremely transparent
False. I am actively opposed to bad plans. I care more about actually securing a leftist government than about virtue signaling to online revolutionary cosplayers, which means I focus more on material solutions than lofty ideology.
False, I’m simply aware of what we already have, and which actions are incapable of changing it.
Precisely my point. The American people lack the will. Maybe that will change, but for now that is the case.
Once again, false. But again, I’m not in the market for ineffective virtue signal “alternatives” like protest voting third party in the general election. I’m in the market for effective alternatives, like democratizing workplaces and building grassroots campaigns in local elections so that one day we can have a viable leftist candidate in the general election.
Which would have come close to an interesting point if your methods worked. But they don’t. It’s not liberalism to reject counterproductive methods. I don’t consider anyone who abandons the material dialectic for ideological grandstanding to be a leftist. You are a cosplayer with a romanticized vision of revolution, and none of the tact or organization so essentially necessary to enact that revolution.
methinks thou doth protest too much
Which is why I came to a hostile community to criticize ineffective ideological purity and get called a liberal? Who exactly am I signaling virtue to here?
voting democrat is an ineffective virtue signal.
liberalism leads to fascism. it’s the cause of cancer, not the cure in any sense.
Didn’t say it was the cure. Chemo isn’t the cure for cancer, it’s a treatment. Baby tigers lead to adult tigers, but I’d rather be locked in a tiger cage with a baby than an adult.
but that’s not the option. it’s being locked in a tiger den, and you’re choosing to play with the cub. you should be trying to get out of the den or kill the tigers.
How do you figure? Getting out of the cage and killing the tiger are both tasks which are easier to do when trapped with a baby tiger than an adult one.
both tigers are in there.
You’re losing the metaphor here. The tiger is the president, there is only one.
your metapho fails to capture the reality of the situation. liberal democracy breeds fascism.