I’ve been part of the online left for a while now, part of slrpnk about 2 months, and if there’s one recurring experience that’s both exhausting and revealing, it’s trying to have good-faith discussions with self-identified Marxist-Leninists, the kind often referred to as “tankies.” I use that term here not as a lazy insult nor to dehumanize, but to describe a particular kind of online personality: the ones who dogmatically defend Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and every so-called “existing socialist state” past or present, without room for nuance, critique, or even basic empathy. Not all Marxist-Leninists are like this. But these people, these tankies, show up in every thread, every debate, every conversation about liberation, and somehow it always turns into a predictable mess.
It usually goes like this: I make a statement that critiques authoritarianism or centralized power, and suddenly I’m being accused of parroting CIA talking points, being a liberal in disguise, or not being a “real leftist.” One time, I said “Totalitarianism kills” — a simple, arguably uncontroversial point. What followed was a barrage of replies claiming that the term was invented by Nazis, that Hannah Arendt (who apparently popularized it, I looked it up and it turns out she didn’t) was an anti-semite, and that even using the word is inherently reactionary. When I clarified that I was speaking broadly about state violence and authoritarian mechanisms, the same people just doubled down, twisting my words, inventing claims I never made, and eventually accusing me of being some kind of crypto-fascist. This wasn’t a one-off, it happens constantly.
If you’ve spent any time in these spaces, you know what I’m talking about. The conversations never stays on topic. It always loops back to defending state socialism, reciting quotes from Lenin, minimizing atrocities as “bourgeois propaganda” and dragging anarchism as naive or counter-revolutionary. It’s like they’re playing from a script.
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to understand why these interactions feel so uniquely frustrating. And over time, I’ve started noticing recurring patterns in the kind of people who show up this way. Again, a disclaimer here: not everyone who defends Marx or Lenin online falls into these patterns. There are thoughtful, sincere, and principled MLs who engage in real, grounded discussions. But then there are these other types:
- The Theory Maximalist
This person treats political theory like scripture. They’ve read the texts (probably a lot of them) and they approach every conversation like a chance to prove their mastery. Everything becomes about citations, dialectics, and abstract arguments. When faced with real-world contradictions, their default move is to bury it under more theory. They mistake being well-read for being politically mature, and often completely miss the human, relational side of radical politics.
- The Identity Leftist
For this person, being a leftist isn’t about organizing or material change. It’s an identity. They call themselves a Marxist-Leninist the way someone else might call themselves a punk or a metalhead. Defending state socialism becomes a cultural performance. They’re less interested in the complexity of history than in being on the “correct side” of whatever aesthetic battle they’re fighting. Anarchists, to them, represent softness or chaos, and that’s a threat to the image they’ve built for themselves.
- The Terminally Online Subculturalist
This one lives in forums, Discords, or other niche Internet circles. Their entire political world is digital. They’ve likely never been to a union meeting, a mutual aid drive, or a community organizing session. All their knowledge of struggle is mediated through memes and screenshots. They treat ideology like a fandom and conflict like sport. They love the drama, the takedowns, the purity contests. The actual work of liberation? Irrelevant.
- The Alienated Intellectual
This person is often very smart, often very isolated, and clings to ideology as a way of making sense of the world. They’re drawn to strict political systems because it gives them order and meaning in a chaotic life. And while they might not be malicious, they often struggle to engage with disagreement without feeling personally attacked. For them, criticism of Marxism-Leninism can feel like an existential threat, because it destabilizes the fragile structure they’ve built to cope with life.
These types don’t describe everyone, and they’re not meant to be a diagnosis or a dismissal. They’re patterns I’ve noticed. Ways that a political identity can become rigid, defensive, and disconnected from real-world struggle.
And here’s the thing that’s always struck me as particularly ironic: Let’s face it, a lot of these people would absolutely hate to be part of real socialist organizing. Because the kind of organizing that builds power, the kind that helps people survive, defend themselves, and grow; it’s messy, emotionally challenging, and full of conflict. It requires flexibility, listening, and compromise. It doesn’t work if everyone’s just quoting dead guys and calling each other traitors. Anarchist or not, actual socialist practice is grounded in real life, not in endless internet warfare.
That’s why this whole cycle feels so tragic. Because behind all the posturing, the purity tests, and the ideological gatekeeping, there’s a legit reason these people ended up here. Of all the ideologies in the world, they chose communism. Why? Probably because they hurt. Because they saw the ugliness of capitalism and wanted something better. Because, at some point, they were moved by the idea that we could live without exploitation.
And somewhere along the way, that desire got calcified into a set of talking points. It got buried under defensiveness and online clout games. The pain turned inward, and now they lash out at anyone who doesn’t match their script. That’s not an excuse. But it is something to hold with empathy.
I don’t write this to mock anyone. I write it because I want us to do better, recognize our differences and hopefully come to a fair conclusion. And Idk, I still believe we can. Ape together strong 💖
Some people are oppressors and these are usually found in the right wing. Inside of the rest though there’s a lot of variety. Some wouldn’t mind at all taking the rôle of the oppressors.
They are not from their caste or from their social circles. This is the only reason why they need a revolution. They look like comrades because they appear to have the same enemy. Yet their goal is just a reversal of the situation not an abolition of the oppression.
I appreciate that someone is trying to have a real conversation about this kind of thing. I don’t think leftists have enough conversations where they’re acknowledging the actual sources of conflict within their ranks.
I have a little experience with moderation (including in leftist spaces), and one of the things that I’ve found to be really helpful in understanding these sorts of problems is actually the modern theory of narcissism. A lot has been learned in the last decade about what happens when a person’s empathy is physiologically impaired, and understanding this personality pattern is immensely helpful in navigating interpersonal conflicts at all scales. Tankies as you describe them are actually one of the more clear-cut cases of a narcissistic subculture within the left. The constant abuse of language, bad-faith argumentation, hypersensitivity to ideological or personal criticism of any kind, the dismissal of any legitimate concerns or established facts that would threaten their apparent worldview, etc… This is all classic narcissistic argumentation.
And somewhere along the way, that desire got calcified into a set of talking points. It got buried under defensiveness and online clout games. The pain turned inward, and now they lash out at anyone who doesn’t match their script. That’s not an excuse. But it is something to hold with empathy.
Unfortunately, this narrative is simply wrong. One of the things that you really have to understand about these sorts of people is that the cause and effect between their arguments and their beliefs is reversed from what you would expect. They do not believe things because they buy the arguments that they were given. They hold beliefs abut what is and is not acceptable because of how they want to be allowed to behave and what rights and privileges they feel they deserve, and then they seek out a narrative/ideology that allows them to justify all of that. We’re not dealing with people who are making decisions based on any sort of rational process. We’re dealing with people who are trying to find palatable justifications for them getting whatever it is that they want (power, status, accolades, etc…). The lack of empathy comes first!
The reason that some of these people find themselves in the left is that they can often misconstrue arguments in favor of broad freedom for all into justifications for a system of ‘governance’ where there is no such thing as personal accountability (at least for them, personally). This is where you get your anarcho-nihilists who don’t want any sort of rule-enforcement structures at all, or anarcho-capitalists who believe that rules should be enforced by the people who can pay the private militias to enforce them (and they, of course, would be the sort of people who could afford such a service). Tankies lean on their disordered trait of ‘living in their future success’ more than most - believing that they will somehow rise to the top (or somewhere near it) of whatever authoritarian regime they’re advocating for, essentially escaping any sort of accountability and holding absolute power, all while appealing to the desire for liberation from the disenfranchised.
If you don’t believe me, then here’s an experiment for you. Try to have a conversation about accountability with anyone who is acting suspect like this. Ask them about what sorts of systems of accountability they would like to see in a society, and ask them about where they see themselves fitting into that system. Ask them how they think that system should respond to some of their sketchier behaviors. Accountability is the #1 enemy of any narcissist. The responses you’ll get will be absolutely insane.
Let’s face it, a lot of these people would absolutely hate to be part of real socialist organizing
Oh yeah. I’ve worked with an anarcho-socialist group, and shit was rough. And I was just volunteering because I believed–and still believe–in their cause. But eventually I had to give it up, because it was so chaotic that I never knew what my schedule was going to be, and I was wasting tons of time waiting for them to decide whether or not I would be useful that week.
I was a member of another group that was ostensibly anarchistic in theory that ended up being authoritarian in practice, and I quickly dipped.
Shit’s messy and complicated. Getting groups of people to point in the same direction can be hard without some degree of arbitrary authority. But when it all comes together, it’s amazing.
Good post, bookmarking. Thanks.
those miserable fucks are mocking this thread https://hexbear.net/post/4671954?sort=Top
keep an eye out for brigaders (I see at almost a dozen sketchy comments here already) and report anyone you even get a whiff of being tankie alt. Even mild tankie apologetics or sympathy shouldn’t be tolerated or else they start thinking this is a safe space for them.
LMAO, my meme I made a bit back is ever relevant
“ThEy jUsT DonT wAnT To reAD [Theory]”
I like how they respond to the first part of the sentence (they’ve read texts) and act like that is the entirety of the critique, despite including the second part in their quote.
As described by OOP, they just take parts out of context and think they somehow “won” the debate.
Yea, I skimmed through the comments. Yikes. Really just proves my point that they take these criticisms like a shot to the chest.
Sometimes it’s hard to believe these people are real. It almost makes more sense they exist to make the left appear completely toxic to everyone, including left leaning people.
I hope that’s the case anyway and all the above is just a lot of over analysing, cos man, they suck.
Ding ding ding! The russian troll farms have had spectacular success on right wingers. “Tankies” are the attempt at a disinfo campaign on the left to cause division. Im not saying there are zero real world tankies just that 90% of them are an attempt to amplify and inflame.
I am sure some troll farm amplify them but I have met some IRL. Left wing authoritarianism is a thing, historically and nowadays.
I checked, guys. OP doesn’t have .ml next to his name.
Sadly, this means we can’t just call him out and we have to actually read the post this time.
I read it, it’s very much just going into more detail on what we’ve all been saying about tankies this whole time. In fact while reading it a few… infamous … .ml tankie users popped in my head that fit the description I was reading perfectly LMAO
Myself, I’ve seen a bit of similar stuff.
Since arriving on Lemmy, I’ve sometimes stumbled on instances where ideological purity is enforced with an iron fist, and dozens of communities have the same overlapping moderators (no point in appealing any decision).
In such places, I’ve sometimes ended up arguing - usually describing history from the viewpoint that Wikipedia takes, from the viewpoint which has the benefit of supporting evidence. In those few places, this has been deemed “reactionary” and I’ve been banned a few times.
Upon examining the moderation logs of the threads where I got banned, I’ve found other peculiarities, like people getting banned for voting the wrong way.
I’ve never been too sure about what the appropriate response is, but my response has been reminding the admin of a local Lemmy instance (I have accounts on multiple instances) that federating with strange places has adverse consequences.
If one federates with an authoritarian place where censorship occurs strongly, everyone will see the counterfactual narratives pushed there, but nobody can argue, since they’ll get banned in those communities super fast. That’s not a balanced exchange of views and I’ve come to dislike that.
I am relieved to read this.
I can’t strictly identify with your beliefs, but the “this country versus that country” conversations are driving me nuts; as though any government is ideal, or free from corruption.
I have never seen any discussion like you are describing. However I see a post complaining of tankies every day.
You’re on .world, you’re isolated from the worst of the Tankie Triad (Hexbear and Lemmygrad), .ml admins in an effort to avoid larger calls for defederation like with hex and grad, try to do things far more subtlety through mod action or in action (e.g. removing comments and posts critical of their favored Authoritarian regimes but allowing known propaganda outlets from those Regimes to fester and spread)
Just a few days ago, for example, a users comment was removed and then banned for calling the USSR a Dictatorship and North Korea a monarchy using one of 2 “catch-all” instance rules they use to justify the removal of any speech they don’t like (Rule 1 is “officially” no bigotry and Rule 2 is “officially” Be respectful)
and there’s much much much more on !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works documented
The posts “complaining” about the tankies are mostly from users like slrpunk or .ee that don’t defederate from the Triad and thus are exposed to it far more often
I told people to vote to at least halt the hate machine. They involved gazan lives and said I was to blame.
I still don’t understand how, I cannot vote, and have nothing but time in this fragmentary calmness we feel. I just wanted them to appreciate their days at least.
I don’t write this to mock anyone. I write it because I want us to do better, recognize our differences and hopefully come to a fair conclusion. And Idk, I still believe we can. Ape together strong 💖
I’ve always defended that aswell, and I guess I’ve chosen my communities well enough to never see outright hatred towards anarchists within the ML circles I’m a part of. Not gonna argue that it’s not the case when it comes to talking about liberals, there is a lot of frustration and resentment, but I think the current state of the world and the historical treatment of commies/anarchists alike justifies that.
There’s disagreements of course (regarding the nature of authority and some historical events), and some unserious jokes, but the news sources, podcasts, online discussion that I consume often feature anarchists in a completely non-adversarial way. There’s quite a few anarchists who I defer to first when it comes to current and historical analysis. I’ve recently discovered Greg Stoker on an ML podcast for example. He is a US army veteran turned anarchist, has great insights into US military and foreign policies and is someone I’ve listened to a lot ever since.
I do see a lot of hate aimed at Marxism-Leninism, but I choose to ignore it. I’m responding to this post because I think it is genuine. Marxism (dialectical materialism) has been the most valuable tool for me to make sense of the world, but the main drive that makes me desperately need to understand the world and try my best to move in the right direction is anti-imperialism.
It’s not the need for an identity, dogmatism to fit in, or because I think it’s “cool” (which would be delusional, even among leftist spaces). If there’s one reason it’s all the horrors I’ve seen and read about that keep me up at night. There’s psychos in all our movements, and you won’t see me stand for people defending the invasion of Ukraine for example (I’m not sure what’s going on in those folks’ heads to be honest, but it’s definitely not theory). While I can’t take seriously a lot of the accusations commonly thrown at Marxism-Leninism, I at least understand the fear and unease behind authority as a whole.
My informed belief is that this fear is manufactured in big part as a way to prevent oppressed people from seizing power (directing very real oppression towards “human nature” or the nature of authority), and this is something that has sunk its teeth so deeply in us that I can’t seem to find a TV show or movie these days that doesn’t feature the “false prophet that ended up being worse than the oppressor” trope.
Regardless, I’ve seen countless grounded, empathetic discussions between different leftists currents that didn’t resort to name calling and willful mischaracterizations, so I second you entirely on this point comrade, I’d love to see more of that ❤️
The only thing I will add is that the “Theory Maximalists” don’t actually seem to have read a lot of the theory they claim. Or when they do, they don’t have a border background in political science to contextualize it. It’s literally the leftist equivalent of Plato’s cave.
Personally I find their constant bad faith arguments tiring so I usually don’t engage. Many campists have the right critique of the existing systems but are useless at knowing what to do to change it. Their best takes are usually to emulate socialist movements of the early 20th century like a cargo cult and hope if they do the same motions, it will magically lead to the same socialism (with them on the vanguard ofc). So ultimately worthless praxis built on stale rhetoric. It’s telling that even the most “left unity” oriented campists manage to thoroughly alienating most of those they believe they should be united with.
It’s telling that even the most “left unity” oriented campists manage to thoroughly alienating most of those they believe they should be united with.
Every time they say left unity, it means “agree with us or you’re ignored.”
You don’t want to have a state when where done? What about left unity! It’ll go away in 5, 10 years tops.
You think having labor camps makes us as bad as capitalists? That’s silly, what happened to left unity?
Every time an anarchist group works with a state socialist group, they are often the last ones removed when the Statists can secure enough of a foothold without them.
Every. Time. I might be willing to work with them to get something removed but if they want to just swap the flag of the state instead of abolishing it, they just want to be the person who stomps on the faces of the workers they claim to support.
You think having labor camps makes us as bad as capitalists? That’s silly, what happened to left unity?
Exactly this. It makes me more inclined to think all of them are Russian troll accounts sent to further divide us rather than actual people. And if they’re actual people, I still very much don’t find them worthy of engaging with.
Tankies are just another extremist cult, that’s extremely online.
Authoritarian Communists have a long tradition of fracturing into political sects. The whole theory heavy stuff is alike to religious texts and their interpretation.
These are political cults. They prey on the weak and lost by giving them something to believe in and a community of sorts. They can only stay part of the community by ideological purity.
This gives these small groups outsized propaganda reach. They will attack all leftists for not being extreme enough. That has a chilling effect.
Todays society, especially on social media, is fractured into small groups that punish disagreement harshly. Gen Z is more into conformity for example.
It’s like you said, an identity or fandom picked by vibes. Actual political change is irrelevant.
Prime example: the biggest left political streamer Hassan Piker is an extremist anti west tankie.
This tankie left completely ignores everything Frankfurt School for example. It‘s just about disillusionment and being anti west.
You’re a zionist. I frankly take offense on the behalf of all leftists to have someone like you pretend to represent our world view. You’re not a leftist, you’re a genocide supporting reactionary. The irony of you talking about “preying on the weak” and punching left in your psychoanalyzing drivel is clear as day. All you can do is punch left, because everyone here is left of you.
Also funny that you would mention your own personal parasocial feud with a streamer when everyone else is trying to have an adult discussion about politics, while maintaining that a broad century old worldwide movement is a “fandom”.
Removed by mod
Zionist as in, I think Israel has a right to exist, sure. Palestinians have a right to self determination as well. I don’t support genocide.
Hamas are Islamists, which is right wing extremist, if you haven’t noticed. They are against everything leftist.
Is Israel committing a genocide?
But isn’t that irrelevant to whether the country has a right to exist as a country? Does a country only have a right to exist when they do nothing wrong? Are all people in a country responsible for the actions of leadership?
Trump is crashing the entire world’s economy, because he’s a fucking short-bus slack-jawed special-ed moron. Does the harm that Trump and his oligarchs are causing mean that the US as a whole has no right to exist? Does Putin’s invasion of Ukraine mean that Ukraine has no right to exist?
And let’s flip that; Hamas attacks and kills civilians as a political stand-in for the Israeli government. That’s the very definition of terrorism. Hamas is the government in Gaza. Does that mean that Palestinians have no right to a country of their own due to the actions of their gov’t?
I have noticed how they often use identical tactics to the Alt-Right movement in the USA, as described masterfully in Innuendo Studios’ The Alt Right Playbook. As such, I’ve started thinking of tankies as a kind of Alt-Left, where facts matter little to none and instead feelings are supreme - though exclusively theirs, while yours count for little (although ironically not none, bc cruelty is the point).
And since algorithms that foster “engagement” tend to make this argumentation style more prevalent, it is becoming more prominent all over the world.
Sadly, it’s fairly prominent in Lemmy as well, though tbf, we who came here from Reddit joined their space, not the other way around. This is why supporting independent development of software such as PieFed and Mbin is so crucial, bc otherwise authoritarianism seeps into everything. E.g. Lemmy has a modlog but no modmail, no notification sent to inform the recipient of a moderation action, no ability to enquire or dispute it even if you somehow find out about it - bc the modlog simply says it was done by a “mod” - and therefore Lemmy is actually somehow more authoritian than Reddit itself was??? (Caveat: admins have near total freedom, at the cost of potentially great efforts required to modify the codebase, and mods have elevated privileges as well, but for the end user… it is much the same, at least with regard to a specific community - they can take what it offers, or else leave).
What makes the Threadiverse fantastic and worth visiting is its userbase. Highly ironically then, what makes the Threadiverse toxic AF is its userbase. 🙃 (So many people over on r/RedditAlternatives saying how they could not tolerate it…) Thus, blocking it is then, with people who use such bad faith arguments chief among my own prioritization for such. (Btw it’s not really possible to fully block all users from a specific instance on Lemmy - that feature would have far better been named as a “community mute” imho - unless you use the Sync or Connect app, switch to PieFed, or delve into making Ublock filters or creating your own instance to defederate them, none of them particularly easy to do, for a mainstream non-technical normie, who might otherwise be a fantastic content creator if the Threadiverse hadn’t decided to run them off with its high level of toxicity.)
On the alt-right playbook, at the end of the day its mostly an analysis of fascism as an analysis of rhetoric. I would argue that I’ve see most of these strategies used by people of every single tendency. I haven’t caught up since they returned from hiatus, but ironically the way they’re presented would be something I would point to as an example of #1, announcing rhetorical devices authoritatively like you’re reading from scripture or something.
If anything since the first run of alt-right playbook the alt right has just won and become the right.
Honestly, a good portion of them probably are the alt right. For some reason leftists on Lemmy have been taken in by this idea that everyone they talk to who purports to be a leftist must be taken at their word in good faith, even if everything they say literally sounds like a right-wing parody of leftism.
The fact that this vulnerability exists necessitates that we assume it’s being used.
Why did the economist walk straight past a $1000 bill sitting in the middle of the sidewalk? Because if it had been there someone would have already picked it up.
It would be absolutely absurd to assume that no conservatives are cosplaying as leftists spouting exactly the stuff they accuse leftists of spouting and doing everything they can to disrupt any form of leftist solidarity. It’s a $1000 bill sitting in the middle of the sidewalk that we can literally watch them picking up if we’re not too willfully naive to acknowledge that it’s happening.
Would you leave a secure server open with the password to the root account literally on the front page? No? Then why is anyone leaving this vulnerability wide open and pretending it isn’t?
I think you just described the genesis of Hexbear:-D.
I’ve been having a decent time here. sure there is an asshole here and there but that’s just GIFT for ya. the threadiverse feels like reddit back when it didn’t suck
The users here are definitely a higher quality than Reddit.
Or much lower, depending on where you go. Your instance is defederated from ~95% of the worst of the bad faith tankie posts though, so your recent experience is a success story that blocking such works to help people enjoy themselves here!
In contrast, I almost left the Threadiverse myself, after being trolled in both Hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml (again, both of which slrpnk.net is defederated from) by making innocuous comments (I thought) yet receiving spam replies for WEEKS and WEEKS afterwards. Tbf that is kinda the entire purpose of ChapoTrapHouse@hexbear.net - to dunk on lib takes (or even ones not leftist enough) - but a new person (me!) wouldn’t know that by arriving at a random post by browsing All, which doesn’t show the sidebar text anywhere before you have a chance to reply in a comment. I would rather not use social media entirely than have to constantly put up with such.
So instead I switched instances, getting rid of lemmygrad.ml, then petitioned the new one to defederate from Hexbear.net, which was successful, then switched to PieFed which allows me to block all users from any instance I choose without requiring admin support, and thereby blocked lemmy.ml. I managed to get rid of the entire Big Three in my feed! And yes it does make experiencing the Threadiverse much better 😊.
I was curious so I checked the hexbear modlog, you posted a weird comment and people posted a lot of “wtf” replies, the mod message for removing your comment was
I’m honestly not sure what you’re referencing, but most of the responses here were just people making fun of you for blaming Putin for funding Israel?
I’ve had a tankie tell me alt right playbook is Nazi propaganda before
Links or it didn’t happen.
Yeah if you can recover my comment and its replies. https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2866047 And if you go to my shit just works account forgive my immaturity and bad arguments, I’ve grown a lot since then
Wow. That’s either some serious head-up-the-ass or a depressing lack of listening comprehension.
“Everything the other side does is wrong, while my own side is incapable of doing wrong.” While somehow at the same time, “bOtH sIdEs SaMe”. It sounds tribal to me… yet what do I know 🤔.
