I read your whole comment mate. I can reply to one part and realize that you’re not actually acknowledging my point. I was trying to simplify things for you because you seem to not be able to respond well to long replies. I was pointing to a really obvious misunderstanding of our discussion. You can’t even acknowledge that?

I’ll put it simply with an extreme example. Again, this is an EXAMPLE. I’m not calling you a Nazi. I’m using an extreme analogy to make a point.

Being a Nazi does not require one to acknowledge that they are a Nazi. If that was the requirement no one but the Nazis of 1930-1940s Germany would fit the definition. One can still be rightfully called a Nazi when they are repeating Nazi talking points. Regardless of their intentions or misunderstandings. We’d call them a Nazi.

You are consistently repeating eco fascist talking points. I don’t care about you’re own internal rationalizing for that. They are eco fascist and you are saying them. That’s it. You can try to justify that to yourself but it doesn’t make you repeating the same things eco-fascist say any less of a reality. That’s what you did.

Aw someone needs a head pat

While I appreciate the liberals calling balls and strikes in the Trump administration I am frustrated at this point that that is all that is being done.

Like, there is a point at which pointing to a broken judicial, electoral, and economic system and saying “hey! They are fucking this up” is just a shield to that administration to make people feel like something is being done to resist it. And they are not.

It’s like, if I was a investigator and I kept pointing to the stabbing victim and saying “I know exactly who is at fault!” But I never actually opened a case and those guilty never saw their day in court. All I did was give people a false sense that justice would be served when they saw the victim. So, those that heard me shout “I know who is at fault” are left with the false satisfaction of justice (or at the very least resistance) and never look much beyond that and continue with their life wondering why there are so many people on the street getting stabbed still.

That’s what it feels like when I listen to the Democratic party and it’s leadership. It feels like they are the party of “acknowledging bad things” and nothing more.

Like, you can call balls and strikes. But if you’re going to tell us for years that “Trump is a threat to democracy” and have zero plan or effort to throw him out of the game when he charges the pichters mound. Then you’re not an “umpire” for democracy. You’re just an announcer in a game without an ump.

Edit: sorry, double analogy in my scattered brain.

Cute. You sound like the exact type of person that doesn’t like to have their simple minded view of the world challenged. Thanks for letting me know it’s not worth anymore of my time.

So, you think a vote manipulation scandal will be the shift in the international view people have of the US?

You don’t think it wasn’t already lost entirely by the multiple Genocides it’s supporting, trade wars with its allies, and general human rights violations of anyone within its borders?

I am just trying to fathom how people with the “Harris actually won” view are pushing this for anything other than to overcome their own personal embarrassment. Or they actually are naive enough to think we’ll be “going back to normal once Trump is gone” and want to ensure the system still “works”.

Finding out that Fascism cheated it’s way into power is not going to change anything about fascism. I think people that are focused on this voting scandal around Harris completely miss the point that fascism will not return it’s power after 4 years.

You should be more focused on working locally to resist ICE. Because the next election is going to “ensure no voter fraud” with armed ICE agents intimidating anyone with even a slightly brown complexion that tries to vote.

A little disappointing you ignored the thesis of my comment again and diverted to “but some socialist experiments had XYZ problem”.

Again, I’d have that conversation but thats not at all what my initial comment is talking about or what the last one was talking about. I made that very clear. I’m specifically talking about successful measures of resistance and revolution. I’d like some discourse on that but you keep trying to change the subject.

I’m genuinely curious what you think the end result of or even goal of this would be? Like in your mind what is the scenario that plays out to you?

Cool. It’s not going to amount to anything. You can quote me on it.

Sorry, I liked your comment and wanted to reply. But forgot to.

Communism (or more specifically Marxist-Leninism) is entirely built on the self interest you’re trying to recredit as the cause though. Its built on the collective interest of the working class against the ruling class.

My comment was not about failures or mistakes of socialist experiments after revolution or resistance. Vietnam is a good example. It has all but entirely lost its working class dictatorship since it’s revolution.

My comment was about how people ignore what militant communist factions are most successful at doing. They never attribute the Marxist-Leninist means of resistance as “communism” and only attribute to “communism” failures or criticism after revolution is obtained. Which is what you just did. Pointing to failures that Marxist-Leninist would also criticize and critique.

Imperialism of today (and of recent vietnamese history) is the subjugation of a nation of people under capitalist exploitation and occupation.

There is no “goal of communism” that is not fundamentally about overcoming that class struggle first and foremost.

And saying “of course they’ll fight against Imperialism” is niave. The ruling class of Vietnam worked with the Imperialist in order to maintain their privileged positions. And country after country without large ML resistance factions have failed to or have been unable to resist. Its is why Imperialist side with existing right wing factions within the nations they exploit. They share the same class interest.

You’re attempting to (or more likely unknowingly) remove class analysis so as not to credit the very means that give resistance groups the historical and militant resistance measures to overcome Imperialism. And there is no “second place” in that contest. It’s Marxist-Leninist factions in first place and there is no second place.

You can absolutely be critical of the different systems of governance that come after that battle is won. And a fundamental part of Marxist-Leninism is about criticizing those failures and learning from them in order to maintain a working class dictatorship under constant Imperialist threat (see Cuba).

And countless ML literature and has been written critizing the very things you brought up as failures. But that’s not really this conversation. Though I’m willing to have it.

The point is that Marxist-Leninist means of Imperialist resistance are THE means in which nations like Vietnam overcome Imperialist occupation. Not attributing that resistance to ‘communist’ is just ignoring the history of the last century. It is what communist (Marxist-Leninist) factions do.

Those are the types of measures that have been attempted for generations. It’s how we got here. There is no hope changing a system from within that is designed to serve the interest of the wealthy. That system will only ever offer temporary measures when it feels it is within its own interests to maintain itself. Social security and Medicare were not some idea FDR came up with to help the working class. They were fought for a pressured for by socialist, communist, and trade unionists literally taking up arms and threatening capitalist production. These social programs were an offering to prevent the actions that threaten to tear it down. They were an offering to the working class to prevent full revolutionary change.

But, here we are again. Hoping for another FDR without any of the material threats to capital. An entire generation of workers uneducated in the history of working class struggle focused only on working within the system and criticizing those that rightfully point to the need for organized (and often militant) labor.

Nothing will ever be offered by the ruling class without a threat to its structures. Nothing will improve without organized labor having the means to defend themselves from the state violence that will be used when change is being demanded to the system.

There is no tax reform that fixes these inherently contradictionary interest between the ruling and working class. Because there is no reason for that tax reform to be offered in the first place.

The electoral systems in this country is a means in which the ruling class defends its own collective interest. It is impressively good at doing so too. Even at times realizing that offerings to the working class are needed to maintain it. But that is only ever if it feels threatened. None of them feel threatened today.

So whether you’re a Marxist revolutionary, a socdem, or just a progressive dude that wants everyone to have healthcare. You need to learn what history tells us. History tells us that even simple reform of the system does not come about without that system feeling fundamentally threatened.

It is why even capitalism “reformist” like yourself should be in support of any form of working class struggle. The sweaty anarchist kids trashing ICE vehicles aren’t hurting progress. The protestors blocking roads and impeding capitalist production are not hurting progress. They are your leverage and should be encouraged and supported fully if you want even a crumb of reform to be offered.

Edit: I’m not comparing the mostly unarmed and unorganized movements of today to the past. But sadly, the sweaty anarchist kid today is where working class militancy starts and ends. It is mostly non existent and entirely unorganized. It’s why the ruling class feels no need to offer even the slightest reform.

Unfortunately, Fascism won because it’s controlling our country. Pointing to fascist and calling them out for cheating will not make fascist stop being fascist.

I’ll be honest, I haven’t looked into the election stuff much because I see it as an effort that goes nowhere. Even if I think it very likely.

Like, we’re black bagging people and shipping them to foreign countrys prisons. Like, if we can’t rally people around resistance to that then how are we going to make people care about election results in a system most people feel like has never worked in the first place?

Fascism is here BECAUSE this “democracys” structures are meant to serve the wealthy and ruling class. That’s how they were written since this nations foundation. This time it was just in your face so plainly because they realized they dont need to pretend anymore.

The people of this country don’t need election investigations to understand that the system is not democratic. They’ve felt that their entire lives in some way or another.

Trump made the ruling class of America realize they didn’t have to keep pretending the systems were democratic. Literally spitting on the ballots is not what brought us here. Its just the point we finally reached.

It’s intentional. The same reason that headlines say IDF troops are “murdered” but Palestinian children “die”. It’s the use of language to manufacture consent.

To you and I it’s probably become painfully obvious when reading headlines. It even, unfortunately, plagues good journalist in non-independent media who have their titles changed before publishing. So much so that you’ll have actual substance of the article explaining the opposite of which the title implies.

But, it obviously works on the population at large even if they aren’t really fooled by it. Sometimes all you need is to pacify the outrage of a population enough. I think that’s what their trying to do with Maxwell. I don’t think they’re stupid enough to even believe the MAGA voters will fall for this narrative. (Some will, but those are primarily those with cult brain rot or more importantly financial incentives to exploit the cult brain rot).

I think they are absolutely unafraid of any popular resistance. These people are protecting pedophiles for Christ’s sake.

I use to keep thinking that each new steel beam will be the one that breaks the camels back. But I’ve been thinking that for too long now.

Adorable

Absolutely. Sorry, I’m so close to this that I just forgot to explain. These are the things my coworkers and comrades got fired for speaking out against.

I would appreciate it you reread the first quote and the response you have in your above comment.

You quoted me explaining that supporters of fascist AREN’T all aware or even intend to support racial supremacists. Then told me, in not so few words, “I can’t be supporting fascist. I’m not not a racial supremacists”.

Can you see how you’re ignoring what I’m talking about and the point I’m making? If you can acknowledge that I’ll respond to the rest of your comment if you still want. But you opened your comment basically telling me that you are ignoring what I said.

Supports a genocide too. I don’t know if I count in that 9000 statistic. But a lot of us have been fired for speaking out against it too. Fuck Microsoft.

They literally went as far as restricting emails with the word “Palestine” in them. Would take sometimes hours to arrive or not at all. Anyone that spoke out had their entire profile wiped within hours of being fired. This is the equivalent of a Facebook social media profile. You can go back a really long time and see past employees profiles and posts. Not when you get fired for pointing out a genocide though.

They are actively supporting and enabling a genocide; and may history judge it’s leadership.

Do you think fascist think they are bad guys? No, they justify their material actions in the same way you are. Most supporters of fascism aren’t going to think “I’m doing this for the white race”. No, they justify the same material actions through other means. And people like you fall for it. They do this until their support and power is so strong they can claim their true beliefs.

When you say things like “caring capacity of the planet”. Like, that’s actually a realistic threat. I’m going to call it out for what it is. Just absolute pseudo science and anti-human shit.

Dude, the planet is going to become inhospital in most places for human life within the next century or two. Any talk about population is a mask for fascist to decide which people are allowed to live in hospitable places. And who they decide will die. You’re falling for some really dumb shit pretending to be scientific when looked at in a vacuum.

Eco-fascist stand their as a solution to the “hard truths” of climate change. Masking themselves as scientific and reasonable. They are not offering solutions for humanity. They are offering solutions for who they view as human and “leser than”. But they’re not gonna say that. They’re gonna say the same thing you are saying.

I understand you likely don’t believe in eco-fascist goals of eugenics. But that doesn’t mean you aren’t using their exact same playbook in what you are saying.

Even if your falsehoods were correct. They are meaningless unless your material goal is fascism and deciding which groups of people are allowed to have children (and really that just means which groups are allowed to live). Seriously. Follow this to its logical conclusion. You are verbatim using eco-fascist talking points.

There is not a gray area here. The intentions will not save people from the material events that will unfold to suppress a groups population.

They don’t make up their talking points to convince other white supremacists. They make up their talking points to fool people like you into believing they are “hard truths”.

If you find yourself often being called “fascist” and think “all these leftist just call everyone a Nazi”. Then I hope you come to the realization that what people are saying is that you are repeating fascist talking points.

Fascist don’t care if you believe in their race supremacy. They just care that you are just convinced enough to believe enough of their truths to not stop them.

I think you’d benefit from from listening to this short video.

https://youtu.be/0YFdwfNh5vs

Listen and maybe try to understand why the people that support “strong borders” aren’t exactly the same as you supporting “hard truths of population”. These are the same fascist goals. They are flexible in their lies and fooling you in the same way they fooled those idiots saying “build that wall”.

Eco fascism is just the version of fascism meant to bring well intentioned liberals to support their ideology.

I’ll assume that’s a joke. I will in good faith hope someone isn’t actually as stupid to believe that. But this thread has sucked all the humor out of me. So forgive me.

Does this type of conversation not exhaust you? Like, clearly I clarified that I had no intention to target the commenter in my initial comment. Can that not just be a misunderstanding on your part or a clarity problem in the comment on my part?

Like, you’ve had the purpose of the comment clarified to you. The point was to explain why I was concerned with the language.

And now you’re here taking screenshots and highlighting something I am not denying I wrote. I am explaining to you the intention behind the word I wrote.

Ironically, not offering me the same charity I offered to the initial comment when I ask for them to clarify what they meant. You could have been an adult and done that. But here we are.

I swear “debate lord” culture has rotten the brains of a generation. This isn’t a YouTube click bait video my friend.

There is no audience for our conversation even. No one would bother reading this deep besides you and me.

You are allowed to say your initial response was in bad faith (it was) and I’m allowed to say that I should have made my initial comment more clear (it could have been better).

But at this point you’re talking to one person (me) and trying to convince them they meant something they didn’t. That sounds exhausting. I know what I meant and what the intention of my comment was. I was the one who wrote it.

You called human-beings a virus. An ad-hominem is when you insult someone in order to not address their argument. Pointing out your language of calling humans “viruses” to be fascist is not ad-hominem. It’s directly addressing the language you used.

If you’re gonna point to logical fallacies you might want to know what they actually mean.

Now. I could have misunderstood what you meant. You were not really clear. But that language is literally eco-fascist.

Maybe Google their talking points. Because you’re repeating them even if you don’t intend to.