- cross-posted to:
- marvelstudios@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- marvelstudios@lemmy.world
It’s been six years since Steve Rodgers handed over Captain America reigns to Sam Wilson, Aka The Falcon, in “Avengers: Endgame.” Wilson (Anthony Mackie) will be the lead of Julius Onah’s “Captain America: Brave New World.” A trailer was released in the summer.
Two different cuts of the film test screened last week, and plot details for one of the cuts have leaked online. The person who attended didn’t seem to like the movie all that much.
Based on the folks I’ve spoken to, those who attended were either given a red or green bracelet and were split up into two different theaters. The reactions I’ve heard have not been very kind to this movie, which is being described as “inessential” and “flat.”
…
Reshoots on ‘Brave New World’ happened in August. This could explain why two different cuts were shown. Last year, after receiving negative test scores in another screening, and Marvel themselves underwhelmed by an early cut they saw of the film, ‘Brave New World’ was delayed to February 2025. Extensive reshoots were called, with “three major action sequences” having been filmed, between May and August 2024 in Atlanta.
‘Brave New World’ had originally wrapped filming in June 2023, and was set for a July 2024 release date, but it’s now turned into this monstrous mess for Marvel. You just don’t push a movie this big out of your calendar, and then decide to dump it in February, unless major trouble is brewing.
Last December, Matthew Orton was hired by Marvel to pen “additional scenes and material”. Orton’s work was shot during this summer’s reshoots. They’ve also added new characters to the story. Will audiences even show up to a Captain America movie that doesn’t star Chris Evans?
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I remember watching the passing the torch moment and just thinking “really? why? Just say captain America is retired”
It is literally an irreplaceable character… especially doesn’t help that the replacement was previously “just some guy” in the other movies.
The “why” is because that’s what happened in the comics, and it was a huge deal. Black Captain America was as divisive on the page as it was on the screen, but not giving Wilson the shield would have been a major deviation from the source material, one that looks a lot like caving to pressure from racists.
In my opinion, they shouldn’t have tried to do a pure standalone Captain America movie. It should have been worked into the Secret Wars event, and filled with additional Marvel characters, similar to the Captain America: Civil War treatment. In the comics, Sam Wilson deals with major insecurity and imposter syndrome. Shit, that would have been a great subtitle for a Secret Wars story. Captain America: Imposter Syndrome. Following the events of FatWS, Sam is struggling with the weight of the shield, and then Fury and Talos come to him for help with the Skrulls. They can’t trust any other Avemgers, not Rhoady, not Thunderbolt, not anyone at SWORD. And then Wilson, with no superpowers, has to duke it out and prove himself against the Super Skrull with all the powers of the Avengers.
And he can’t, because he’s just one guy, but he keeps getting back up. And that’s when he remembers that Steve’s superpower wasn’t strength or speed or intelligence, or even the shield. Captain America was resilience, defiance, and inspiration personified. That’s what the world needs against an unseen, invasive threat. People need hope, courage, and leadership. And that’s when people rally to help Sam defeat the Super Skrull, regular soldiers and coexisting Skrulls, maybe hint that Eli Bradley inherited some super from his Grampa. And Nick Fury can have his final blaze of glory before officially definitely for the last time no cap retiring.
Congrats, you’re already a much better screen writer than anyone at Marvel.
This would’ve been so much better than Secret Invasion. That’s the show that made me cancel my D+ subscription because I was so mad at how goddamn stupid it was. Skrulls in general have just been bungled by the MCU since their introduction in Capt. Marvel. I looked forward to them, but now I just really can’t stand anything about them.
I’m a completionist to an extent so I’m watching everything Marvel, but even I wish I could unwatch Secret Invasion.
I had been a completionist up until about that point, but just thinking about how poorly written it was just started making me angry, it reminded me of the decline of Game of Thrones. It’s like this writing style of “Things Just Happen”. There’s no point to any one scene, other than to setup some other scene or contrived conflict. It’s as if each character’s history is completely ignored, all logic just goes completely out the window, and nothing in the show really matters. It started feeling insulting to watch it, like, “Who the fuck thought this was a good idea?”
I think Secret Invasion could’ve been amazing had it been the culmination of something that had been brewing for awhile, not the beginning/middle/end in one show and not for some stupid contrived plot about earth-bound Nick Fury failing to find the skrulls a planet (Capt. Marvel can apparently do no wrong). It needn’t have been quite ‘Infinity War level’, but maybe had they shown different characters being taken over one at a time in different movies/shows and create this genuine atmosphere of paranoia where you’re like, “Who the fuck is a skrull?”, it could’ve all come to a head in Secret Invasion and been a bit more impactful. IMO the problem started with Capt. Marvel, they completely botched it by making the Skrulls into good guys, just to “subvert expectations”. They needed to keep the skrulls as villains for longer than half a movie and not waste our time with a bunch of jokey throwaway scenes in random movies/shows of Ben Mendelsohn being a funny quirky alien, it was such a waste of his talents. The MCU’s biggest problem has always been the villains, they’re just so underdeveloped and underutilized, when it’s the villains that can sometimes the most interesting thing about these movies/shows. Other than a handful of standout villains, MCU villains usually just end up being “Some guy/gal” and them dying at the end means absolutely nothing.
I think it could have worked as a slow-burn suspense/mystery spy thriller if only had been building up to something worthwhile. I try to keep in mind that the whole show basically got reshot because they deemed the series’ plot as too similar to the Ukraine vs. Russia conflict (pretty ironic considering the plot of Falcon & The Winter Soldier but okay), I suspect the original version of this show was FAR better than what we got. That crazy scene of the people shooting each other in public (kept vague for the sake of spoilers but it’s in the finale) felts like we got a peek into what this show was supposed to be.
I understand the comic universe had Sam Wilson as a much more relevant character, but the MCU was meant to be a separate story and try its own interpretations. The MCU eagle-man was just a secondary character that did not matter to the audiences, he could not be the successor.
It’s Bucky who should inherit the shield, not Sam. Bucky had a deep connection with Steve, is widely popular and beloved with the audience, and could have had a solo film with a good story dealing with this alone (hell, the scene of Steve handling the shield to Bucky could have been a very deep moment by itself, after all they both experienced together). I know he had a dark past with Shield manipulating him, but he redeemed himself, and exactly because of these regrets and shaded past, a film showing him turning into a selfless heroe needing to prove to himself and others he can be a great captain america would be an apt transition for his character. Common people would love to see a more mature story with non black and white characters, that still progresses Steve’s legacy.
Barnes did take on the mantle of Captain America following Rogers’ apparent death in 2008, but Rogers eventually gets better and returns. For a while they were both Captain America, but eventually Bucky’s identity as the Winter Soldier becomes public and he’s put on trial. He is acquitted, but gives up the mantle because he thinks his checkered past taints the symbol.
A few years later, Steve grows old and retires, and specifically picks Sam as his replacement. Sam wonders why it wasn’t Bucky, and spends most of his time as Cap trying to prove himself.
Neat story, it is also good. But the MCU has showed tons of people with checkered pasts still giving their best and overcoming it, and audiences accepting it. Starting with Iron Man, the ex merchant of death, and going Bruce Banne with Hulk (to the in-universe people), Black widow, Loki (twice), Ant-man (ex thief), and probably others i dont remeber.
You need the passing of the torch, because the idea of Captain America can’t die. Expecting the current team at marvel to properly handle such a thing though, is the real problem.
That description just makes me think reality caught up to the MCU. I could describe almost every Marvel movie since 2010 this way.
Reality is often disappointing.
Sorry I couldn’t help myself. I saw every MCU movie from Shang Chi to Iron Man. I stopped afterwards.
I can’t describe why? I think I have such a fond memory of Endgame and beforehand that when I hear these movies do poorly I don’t want to soil my memory of it.
We can all agree End Game was peak MCU.
Spider-Man No Way Home is the only MCU movie that I really enjoyed watching in phrase 4-5.
Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness was the last MCU I cared enough to watch in the theatre.
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 was good? but I can hardly recall what happened in that movie.
Most of the mini-series on Disney+ are forgettable. Loki season 2 was chef kiss and I want to see more of Moon Knight.
The recent Deadpool & Wolverine was dumb but it was lots of fun to watch.
I feel like those pre End Game characters are doing all the heavy lifting in current MCU. I don’t find myself caring for most of the new characters that they are bringing in to set-up for the next big stage.
Man, Guardians 3 was so goddamn good. The weird meat space station, the fun alien suburb. The ending was the best in the series, and 2 set a really high bar.
Other than that and Wandavision, phase 4 and 5 hasn’t impressed me. I really enjoyed Shang-Chi, The Marvels, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Loki. Had a good time with Dr Strange MoM, Deadpool, and the What Ifs.
Shang Chi was great.
Absolutely one of my faves.
I’ve had essentially 0 interest in the MCU since Endgame. They wrapped up that story quite nicely, but even by that point I was starting to get fatigued by the whole thing.
Watched the recent Deadpool movie last week and enjoyed it, but it offers something different to every other superhero movie.
Falcon and the Winter Soldier was a decent series, carried by Anthony Mackie and the chemistry between the leads.
The problem is that Falcon is already a great character. No super serum Cap’n America is already boring.
Mackie has never struck me as charismatic enough of an actor to lead a franchise as big as Captain America, hes just so boring to watch, its like he isn’t even there.
Couple that with what seems to be another bland script from the goofs that brought us Falcon and the Winter Soldier and I am not surprised it sucks.
The problem is always that Disney is trying to cut costs on the directors, writers and actors by picking TV level people. Its pretty obvious this hasn’t worked so far and that they have had to press the panic button to get as many of the OGs back as possible.
I actually liked Falcon/Winter Soldier for the most part. Enjoyed the cast, it explored issues I care about from wealth inequality to racism and immigration.
Wonder how much of it is just bad writing for him? Altered Carbon season 2 was really meh that he led. Then I imagine the original actor in his place and realise I just didn’t like the plot that much compared to season 1.
I can’t think of anything he’s been in though where he’s nailed the role outside of Falcon/Winter Soldier, where I’ll admit there was lots of supporting roles. Man’s either cursed with D-list writers, or, as you mentioned, lacks the charisma to carry it.
Is he good in Twisted Metal? That show looks like a lot of fun.
I think he was great in Twisted Metal and the show, as a whole, was a hoot. I’d say I even liked it more than the Fallout show, but honestly I played waaaaay more Twisted Metal than Fallout.
just to add, i never even knew twisted metal had a story, watched the series on a whim and found it to be great fun. it’s enjoyable even if you know nothing about the game
That’s great to hear because the little references and cameo’s from other characters was the cherry on top of a not very serious show. To enjoy it without the meta is a sign of a good show!
He’s decent in it, nothing groundbreaking but I wouldn’t say he was bad or anything
The problem is not enough people liked Falcon/Winter Soldier. Its the same thing when people say they liked Marvels or whatever, good for you that you enjoyed it, but nowhere near enough people did for the amount they spent on it and it lost huge sums. Disney simply cannot sustain huge bombs time after time and if they are going to spend this sort of money it has to be a success, which means making stuff that is actually popular.
I like the fact that they went with a black Captain America, the problem is casting. Mackie is clearly well connected as hes hardly lead a massive commercial success in his time, just the opposite. The problem that Marvel has is that they stuffed so many of the bigger name black actors into Black Panther, including a few who would have been a much better choice than Mackie, now they are reluctant to recast them in a different role. Sure they have done this a few times, but very rarely when its to face roles rather than one face role and one CGI or “blue face” role, or one film and one TV series on Netflix.
The Marvels served the role of a TV-Movie for the Ms. Marvel series, they should have had it straight to Disney plus with a modest budget. Several of these smaller marvel movies/shows probably might have been better off with lower budgets. Not everything needs to be a homegoenous tentpole and by trying to force it, Disney is just setting expectations too high and burning money disappointing a large audience when they could have been entertaining a smaller audience.
My first thought was that Mackie’s bland acting killed Altered Carbon and now it’s killing Captain America. He has absolutely no charisma on his own.
Season one was so good. I couldn’t barely finish season two. The writing and the acting were both just bad.
another bland script from the goofs that brought us Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Wait, are you telling me they didn’t all get fired after that atrocity?
No, they got promoted to film directors with a large budget. Hopefully this bombs and they go back to making day time soaps.
They’re trying to do the impossible with this character. He is critical of the actions of the in-world corrupt establishment but also unquestioningly loyal to it. The climax of his last story was asking a bunch of senators who canonically caused a human rights emergency to try harder. He literally just asked them to try harder. That was the resolution. Also the people who were fighting for the victims of the human rights emergency that the MCU American senate canonically caused were all killed because boot-licking is framed as the “correct” way to address systemic issues. More than any other IP, I think this one is the US military’s favorite for recruiting purposes.
It’s pretty hard to pitch the Flag Smashers as victims or the “good guys”.
The real problem with the aftermath of The Snap is that it basically became an in-universe analogue for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but there’s still no easy answer in the MCU counterpart so it’s just frustrating because it can’t be resolved without hurting someone.
Yeah, like most MCU villains they started committing random acts of violence as their leader “goes bad.” The in-universe MCU Senate canonically already went bad. The solution proposed by the story was to kill the flag smashers and ask the people who (I keep repeating this) are canonically responsible for the problem due to their negligence, are asked to “do better.”
like most MCU villains they started committing random acts of violence as their leader “goes bad.”
IDK I got the idea that a lot of people in the Flag Smasher’s inner circle were beginning to question their leaders’ violent decisions, I feel like the show was definitely portraying the leader as worse that the members, even though they were all in the wrong here
ask the people who (I keep repeating this) are canonically responsible for the problem due to their negligence
lol the only person canonically responsible is Thanos
Picture made me thinks it’s A-Train (to Africa)
SAME
“inessential” and “flat.”
That’s one way to describe nearly everything Disney made for a number of years now
I failed to see what the point of this (and the TV series that set it up) was and it seems like their isn’t one.
With the development hell and such bad word of mouth this far out, it is lining up to be their biggest box office bomb so far.
I liked the series, but mostly because of Bucky and more backstory for Zemos.
Captain A is a hard character to play or write because he is so one dimensional - he is good, no what ifs or buts. Chrias Evan did a great job, but you also need a good villain that carries the story. And without great writers, its hard to make something fun and entertaining.
I liked the series, but mostly because of Bucky and more backstory for Zemos.
More Zemo, please - he was the best thing in it and it’s criminal t here’s a Thunderbolts film without him in it.
I hope he’s in it as a surprise character
Me too.
I’m hoping that The Sentry is the main threat and that the Black-ops Avengers realise they are massively outclassed (as really on Hulk or Thor could go toe-to-to with him) and they have to get sneaky to bring him down. Now that would require some kind of mastermind and I wonder where they could find one…?
The Sentry probably will be the main threat, it’s likely that they go with the backstory of him having DID based on the choice of Where Is My Mind? for the trailer music, and picking that as the theme sort of insinuates that Sentry will play a MAJOR role in the plot, at least.
And now set to release in “fuck you, it’s February”. When stinkers get thrown out to die.
I’ll from now on say Fuck you February when referring to movie releases.
“When’s Subpar Superhero: The Search for More Money coming out?”
“It’s set to release in Fuck you February”
All credit to Red Letter Media for coining Fuck you, it’s February.
(and the TV series that set it up)
And here’s my problem with everything Disney is splooging out these days; the interconnectedness has very rapidly gone from being a fun feature to an obnoxious ask on our time.
The last season of The Mandalorian actively annoyed me when I realised that a bunch of the action between it and the previous season had taken place during the Boba Fett show. I didn’t bother with that because it looked dull, meaning I had to go away and find out what I’d missed.
You watch any of the movies now and there’s some element of them that you’ll miss if you haven’t watched a selection of attached series and three previous movies.
Mate, I’m not doing fucking homework just so I can give you ten more hours of my life.
The point really is “it’s another movie”. Same point of Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Thor: The Dark World. Having these types of movies makes sense. “Good guy fights bad guy!” isn’t a bad comic book movie premise, and I think sometimes people assume superhero films have to be bigger than that to be good.
Every superhero movie I’ve seen recently sucks open ass.
Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was good
Shang Chi and Blue Beetle weren’t bad either
I’m not sure but I think that’s one where I started it after 2 and went “what’s happening, who the fuck is that guy” etc. I must’ve missed something
Imagine shooting this movie twice just for it to do this badly.
It was the one thing I figured would be better after reshoots, but I guess it’s still bad!
This also explains why they marketed Thunderbolts* far heavier than Captain America: Brave New World last month.
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No need to pretend Marvel movies stopped being money generators. Newest Deadpool & Wolverine generated worldwide 1.3B USD, ranking it 21st top grossing movie of all time. Domestic 633M USD, China 60M USD. It’s 7th highest grossing MCU movie.
That’s more of an exception than the rule.
Even a joke in the movie that they are joining the MCU at a low point
Marvel has gone from a sure thing to being a lot more iffy.
There are good recent Marvel movies, but there are some box office duds.
Lets see if that trend holds for future MCU movies
They became split after 2019, with a roller-coaster track of (some) highs and (more) lows, specially if we are counting the marvel disney tv series too (since they are inter-connected now, we should). No genre or franchise ever died suddenly, even DC had successes years after BvS ‘Martha is our mother’s name’ event (which also did make money itself, the loss of goodwill only shows up in later entries).
My analysis is that most of the successes are prologues of pre-2019 stories and characters, redoubling the appeal to nostalgia and giving an ending where Marvel lets (guardians 3, deadpool for fox marvel, spider man with the 3 spiders and ending current peter’s arc). The actually new stories and characters, that should be the ones being widely seen cause they are supposed to star and steer the MCU now, have been duds (and lots of old timers are also having hard times, like Nick Fury). This is a strong indicator of decline, and the fact they threw money bags at Robert D. Junior to appeal again is another.
“why can’t they just make it good”
well, as it turns out, good, truly good and griping, is hard.
when you have the stars who can carry just about anything, quality can slip a bit, but when you don’t, and it’s been proven the stars you’re using, aren’t compelling personalities, for whatever reason, and don’t have the draw themselves, good becomes paramount. and because the mcu is built around intertwined narratives which are almost completely dependent on characters, when the characters themselves aren’t working (mackie, larson, et all) and the narrative itself is far past being played out, you’re sorta up a creek.
Yeah, I think it’s telling that even the Disney+ series that setup Mackie taking over as Capt. America didn’t even really “star” his character, it was Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Falcon has never been that big of a character on his own in the Marvel universe, he’s just some guy that flies, even Baron Zermo and John Walker were more interesting than anything else in that series. Mackie seems like a nice, funny guy, but I don’t know that he has a big enough personality to play a leading role. I could see a “buddy film” with Winter Soldier, since they seem to have good screen chemistry with Sebastian Stan, but that would just be a repeat of the D+ series.
Still, you have to blame the writing for all of that, not the actors or the source material. Because what’s on screen can vary wildly from the comics if you want it to.
Yeah, I think the actors try to do as good a job as they can do with the material they’re given, unfortunately, Disney has just been churning out mediocre production after mediocre production. Either they’re just hiring sub-par writers/directors, not giving them enough time to develop the material, or a combination of both. I think if given a good enough script, Mackie could probably handle it on his own, but unfortunately the people running the company are probably not up to snuff and just end up giving us sub-par drivel like they’re trying to deal with with Brave New World. Star Wars has basically gone to shit now, but in the hands of somebody competent, like what we got with Andor, they could still deliver some awesome material. Unfortunately, we just can’t really depend on them to do that.
One thing I was trying to keep in mind with this movie is I’m pretty sure that it’s the last MCU production to start filming before Kevin Fiege’s shift to “making good stories” or whatever. I think the turnover shows too, as this movie started filming in March of 2023 and is getting released a mere month or two before Thunderbolts*, which started filming in February of 2024. But it seems like the reshoots couldn’t fix this movie’s problems.
First time I hear about it. I need to have a look at the current phase, the whole thing looks messy
They’ve been hammering out the trailer in cinemas for a few weeks now. It’s not filling me with enthusiasm.
“You may be Captain America, but you are not Steve Rogers.”
That may come back to haunt them.
I mean, Anthony Mackie is not Chris Evans. But they should have leaned into that. Play with the insecurity. Sam isn’t Steve, and pretending that Sam can learn to throw the shield in an afternoon, or stand against the might of Thanos, it’s internally inconsistent. But Sam can lead, and he can inspire others. The show did a piss poor job of riding the fence on whether the terrorists were sympathetic characters. From the sound of it, the studio wants to have their cake, eat it, and sell it all at the same time. Is Sam “as good” as Steve? Does a black man wearing the flag condone the nation’s challenging historical (and current) crimes of racial violence and oppression? Will Americans accept a new person carrying the shield? Will the world governments allow a moral leader to operate autonomously the way Steve did? The show raised all of those questions, and then just kinda shruged.
“You may be Captain America, but you are not Steve Rogers…boy.”
Racist presidents before a racist Cap? Please.
Yeah I saw this trailer in IMAX when I went to see Joker 2 and I almost bood because I was hoping to see the Thunderbolts* trailer instead. Although I do like the Cap 4 trailer.
Snore.
I can’t stand most superhero crap. So boring. Predictable. Sophomoric. All the heros constantly tripping over Deus ex machina at the last second.
Do like The Boys, some Punisher stuff, Judge Dredd, the latest Crow movie was fantastic.
Couldn’t give a shit less about comic books.
They need to bring back the zombie craze, we got a few good movies out of that. Or maybe some more post apocalyptic stuff. Maybe Fox or whoever could unfuck the Alien and Predator franchises. But more superhero shit? I was over the fad before it started and it just keeps dragging on.
Quit milking this cow, nothing but dust in her udders now.
The Zombie Era was heavily concentrated on The Waking Dead, which due to how many episodes and seasons it had sucked all the oxygen out of the genre, and people are still tired of zombies. People say the videogame era of adaptations is about to begin, but even then Borderlands was a failure.
Yeah, and no one, myself included, hardly finished watching The Walking Dead. It went to shit. WWZ was an even bigger disappointment.
I remember being pumped when I saw Alone in the Dark for rent at Blockbuster back in the day.
Fuck Uwe Boll with a rusty cactus. He personally set back movies based on video games at least a decade.
There are 5 movies and a TV series for The Crow…
Hand over the reigns.
