UK Labour are too Tory for me.
I’ve threatened that they’ve lost my vote. (edit)
On LGBTQIA, specifically trans rights.
On their plans for the NHS.
On their plans for health and wealth inequalities in the UK.
On their plans for the relationship the UK has with Europe.
They have to be less Tory to get my vote back.
It’s not acceptable that to not vote Tory, we have to settle for what they offer. They assume their position is acceptable.
If they correct their position, I’ll reconsider
@uk_politics
“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”
Labour and the Tories are not the same. The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Labour and the Tories are not the same
No, they’re not. But that doesn’t make them good. Less bad, perhaps, but good is a stretch.
The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Voters are apathetic because they rarely (if ever) get to vote for something, usually it’s voting to stop something/somebody else.
I agree that voting these days seems to be about “holding one’s nose” and picking the party most likely to stop something.
I blame FPTP.
At the moment, if you’re right-leaning there’s essentially just one party of note but if you’re left-leaning you’ve got some choices.
With PR, I believe more people would be able to just vote for what they want to see.
@C4d Only if people fail to see that there are multiple narratives, which include telling Labour I require they change under threat of no vote. They like others know not of my intention, the cost to them is clear, a lost vote, which is what they require. They earn my vote, they work for it. Hopefully ppl who are dissatisfied will see that another way exists and instead demand better, not to succumb to their own apathetic thought processes.
I think this argument (and your voting “power”, or at least your ability to directly influence the direction of a political party) would work better in a PR rather than FPTP system.
At the moment, losing your vote may or may not cost anyone anything if you’re among a demographic that consistently votes one way or the other.
If you had time on your hands, you could join the local representation of the party of your choice and begin to influence it that way. Unfortunately, not all demographic groups have the luxury of free time.
@C4d Like I’ve said elsewhere, it’s a threat of a lost vote, that doesn’t mean I won’t vote tactically at GE. They can gamble that I and others will hold to our threat in their strategy if they wish. Just as they can if they assume that all polls assume a majority acceptance of policies, which is short-sighted IMO.
They’ve been told they’re not good enough and have a threat of a lost vote because of it.
Agreed, PR is better, Starmer has U-turned on that as well though.How have you told Labour? Are you organised? Apologies if you’ve already answered this elsewhere in the thread and I’ve missed it.
Under FPTP, the vote on the right (Tory Party) has an advantage because the vote on the left is more split (Labour, Lib Dem, Green). I appreciate that independents and other parties exist (eg this thing called Reform on the right) or are being considered (have posted separately).
In my area it’s a two horse race. I’m sure that’s the case in many areas.
Depending on the voting patterns and margin in your area, FPTP may allow them to call your bluff. If over the course of the next year your area begins to poll as marginal, you may find you have more clout.
It’s so unfair. But it’s how it works right now. PR can’t come soon enough. I’m saddened that it seems a long way off at this time.
I’ll be voting though. It’s not put me off.
@C4d
It’s a very recent development over this weekend and so far I’m contacting opposition parties, my union and seeking out activists as well.
I’ve emailed regional Labour party and also included my local LibDems, Greens parties, as well as Labour, Green and LibDem metro councillors.I agree and recognise how FPTP doesn’t work fairly and yes they can call my bluff. I’m uncertain as to whether they can effectively predict how accurate voting intention polls are. Labour keep shifting right.
@C4d I’ll also be voting and I’ll flog the hobby-horse again for the benefit of others, because I’m tiring of people failing to see that the threat to not vote Labour and the intention to vote tactically are separate. A bluff as you accurately put it.
I think I get your point but the subtlety of voting for a party because you fully agree with them vs voting for a party to oust someone else is lost on others if the outcome is the same.
In terms of your other points, doing something is better than doing nothing. If you’re really passionate about this and what to see change in eg the Labour Party it’s going to take more than just you; it’ll need organisation and grass roots activity.
I know a few people who’ve had a moment of disappointment or dissatisfaction that’s driven them into politics at grass roots and beyond. They cover a good chunk of the centre left to centre right and fortunately we’re all grown up enough to still be friends even as we disagree with each other.
It’s a lot of work.
Good luck!
This is a good summary of Labour’s actual policy positions, which are very different from your characterisation of them. You obviously have the right to vote for whoever you want to, for whatever reasons, but it’s better to root your behaviour in reality, not rhetoric.
Thank you! It’s actually worrying how much people seem to be basing their idea of what party policy will be on soundbites they’ve heard.
This country is in dire need of some political literacy. Thinking that the Tories and Lib Dems are somehow better on LGBQT issues than Labour would be hilarious if it wasn’t a damning indictment of the intelligence of British voters.
Would you be able to unlock the article for us by any chance? 🙏
Search for it on archive.is
If you’re on Firefox you can add a filter for paywalls to uBlock Origin.
Will do thanks!
@frankPodmore Unfortunately the pay wall prevents others from seeing this. I’ve read the entire article via the link given and it doesn’t address several of my points, so I’m not clear which policy positions you’re referring to.
In fact the opening paragraph agrees with me:
“It has been said that in sidelining the Labour party’s Corbynite left wing and manoeuvring it towards the centre, Sir Keir Starmer has made the UK opposition barely distinguishable in tone from the governing Conservatives.”No, it doesn’t agree with you. Really basic reading comprehension error, there. It says people have said that, not that it is true. It spends the following 600 words demolishing that case.
Paywalls are easily circumvented. This isn’t a good excuse.
For the uninitiated; Copy the article address and paste it into the search bar on archive.is. There are multiple paywall bypass methods, this is just one.
@noodle As I said I’ve read it, via a different method to you, but thanks for sharing it.
Now other readers will be aware of a strategy. Not all strategies work so people may have to try more than one. In any case it’s an inadequate article.You responded within 1 minute of it being posted and then dismissed it for being too long, which it isn’t. Anything less than 1500 words should take you about 5 minutes to read. That’s not much of a commitment.
@noodle Skim, CTRL-F, then re-read, it’s been quite some time now and it’s still inadequate.
@frankPodmore My characterisation is broad and lacking detail, mostly for word count. There are other policies I’ve not detailed either.
As I’ve said elsewhere, my voicing my opinion to Labour and other left parties is as important as my vote.That is definitely less important than your vote. Also, I’m unconvinced you’ve read the article in the time you’ve had since I posted it.
EDIT: Why have you replied in so many different comments? I can’t follow your argument if it’s spread out like this!
I think you might have broken them.
@frankPodmore
It is precisely as important because I value my vote and I decide to whom I give it, and because they need to know why they have my vote or not. The article is 632 words long.Even this argument shows that the ‘why’ of voting is subsidiary to the fact of voting, which is the opposite point to the one you intend.
@frankPodmore Only if you assume that my intention is to make good on the threat.
It’s not much of a threat if you don’t, is it?
@frankPodmore I have rooted my behaviour in reality by telling them what I want. Additionally, I also have the absolute right to change my mind as many times as I wish and to vote tactically, come the GE dependent on the facts available at the time.
We should all be able to make on the spot decisions based on the available data and only rely on heuristics if the data isn’t available.
What I tell them and what I do, are not Labour’s concern.Your description of what you want is virtually value-free, because it’s framed entirely negatively. It sounds like you want ‘not the Tories’. The article makes the case that Labour are ‘not the Tories’, as does history and, frankly, common sense.
@frankPodmore The article in it’s just over 600 words does barely anything to answer my points.
The value is again, that I choose to tell Labour what it is I want from them. Recall that I’ve not shared the email with you, so you have no way of knowing.
It isn’t a simple dichotomy. I choose to tell Labour what I want from them. There are many varieties of not Tory and labour can choose to be Tory lite, or not. How I vote and what I tell them can align or not as I see fit.I mean, again, your points are ‘Labour are too much like the Tories’ and the article is about numerous ways in which Labour are, in fact, not like the Tories.
Dude’s just trying to make another “both sides” argument. Always funny how people pretending that both sides are the same do so in a way that conflates the further-left party with the further-right party, and not the other way around. Almost like it’s conservatives pretending to be to the left…
Yeah, they’re always only a hop and a skip from voting Lib Dem. And from there, it’s just one jump to ‘Might as well vote Tory…!’
You don’t vote FOR a party in a first past the post system. You tactivally vote against.
@Garfvynneve What I tell them I’m planning to do doesn’t have to match with what I’ll actually do.
We all can do this to demand better.
The famous Labour double bind:
If a left leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because they don’t appeal to voters. If a right leaning Labour lose the election, it’s because the left didn’t vote for them.
@Fedegenerate I didn’t say I won’t vote for them, I just told them they had lost my vote.
Staying silent and voting for a not good enough Labour let’s them think they are. Telling them I won’t even though I might vote for them, and describing why, gives them an opportunity to evaluate.
If they’re not good enough for you and yours what are you doing to change that? My strategy is one way. There are others.don’t think I’m describing what you think I’m describing.
I’m describing the no win situation right leaning Labour supporters try to force left leaning people into.
I.e. 1 When a Labour leader they don’t like loses an election it’s the left’s fault. 2 When a leader they do like loses an election it’s the left’s fault.
I saw the same double bind being envoked in this thread, so I thought I’d highlight it.
Oh no you must be so persecuted!
Although the last person that Labour put forward, wasn’t right leaning?
How well did he do in the vote against Boris? Or is that all the right wings fault too?
Hello exhibit A, thanks for joining us. Would you like to calm down and try again?
I agree though, Corbyn losing votes was Corbyn’s fault. This then means Kier pushing the left not to vote for him is Kier’s fault.
Except Labour supporters want it both ways, it was the left’s fault that Corbyn lost the election, and Starmer not winning the left’s vote is also the left’s fault.
This is called a double bind. I hope that clears things up for you.
I’m fine. I just find it amusing watching a party that spends it time blaming everyone else.
Corbyn lost the election because:
- He had generally unpopular policies and
- The press don’t like Labour so will also make them look incompetent.
Starmer has the same issue, watching the Labour left crucify him for policies he doesn’t have, and misrepresenting his caution for committing money to projects when the Tories still have time to wreck and pillage everything further as reasons he won’t support the NHS at all is amazingly short sighted.
I just find it amusing watching a party that spends it time blaming everyone else.
I know right? That’s what the double bind does. “It’s the left’s fault Corbyn lost the election, it’s the left’s fault they won’t vote for Starmer”. At least we can all have a bit of chuckle at them.
Can you vote tactically for Lib Dem or Greens without risking more votes going to the Tories?
Tactically speaking, you can vote for the party you want to win only if you are absolutely certain that a) the tories have such a strong majority there isn’t a chance of anyone else getting in; b) some other party has such a majority there isn’t a chance of the Tories getting in. Otherwise you vote for the non-Tory party (or party that will not ally with the Tories) that is most likely to make it in your area.
I still vote tactically because there have historically been some close results where I live, but I’m sick of voting for parties I don’t want to win. I decided to become a member of the political party that I felt I was in most in line with, despite the fact I rarely vote for them. Small gesture, I know.
@ThePyroPython My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
@ThePyroPython
Under FPTP, not in my area, however…
https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110876506587951106Fuck the Lib Dems, even tactically.
Mate, we’re under a first past the post system, tactical voting matters to get the most damaging political force, i.e. the Tories, out of power and by a significant majority.
Anything remotely left of the Tories is better, even if it is Centre Centre Centre calling itself Left Labour.
At this point lib Dems are probably left of labour with their policies, given labours recent downturn
I mean I believed that and voted for Clegg and then he turned out to be a toffee tory
No, this is just untrue.
They are a centre-right party. They effectively represent Tories who didn’t want Brexit. They may talk a big game and make big promises, such as UBI. But they also made promises when they went into coalition with the Conservative party, and once in power they fell in line.
UBI isn’t even necessarily a leftist policy. Apparently Richard Nixon even considered it!
It’s not inherently leftist but it is a big promise.
Not unlike tuition fees.
Just incredible that the Lib Dems are still trying this argument.
Apart from the reality of their platforms, Ed Davey was literally a cabinet member in a Tory government and was knighted for this service by a Tory Prime Minister.
Apart from the reality of their platforms, their Ed Davey was literally a cabinet member in a Tory government and was knighted for this service by a Tory Prime Minister.
Well the fact that when the Tories got a majority of their own they reversed most of what he did in office should be in an indication that he’s not actually one of them.
So his record is five years of voting for every Tory policy and zero long term achievements?
Right, so it should be alarming that labour has worse policies than that, right?
IDK what metric you’re using for ‘worse’. Sure would be alarming if they did, but they don’t.
You students tried that in 2015 and got Megagiga Tory and in 2016 we left the EU. In 2017 and 2019 when the Lib Dems campaigned to stop Brexit and rejoin it was “they took rrrrr students loans!”. 🙄
So yes, fuck them. Oh and whilst we’re at it let’s also hand power to two parties that will keep us out of the EU because they are scared of their voter base. Good job 👍.
I’m not a student, but let me ask you this as a supposed predecessor, why didn’t you ensure younger generations didn’t have to worry about politicians lying without consequence?
Oh and don’t forget the Lib Dems are partially responsible for this mess. It may surprise you but I’m old enough to remember that. They’re an untrustworthy party and no one owes them a vote because some person on the Internet wants to whitewash their recent history and guilt trip us into supporting them.
Trust and good will for the Lib Dems was destroyed in 2010, when they jumped into a coalition government with the Tories for the tiniest sniff of power, despite their manifesto being closer to Labour’s on paper, backtracking on many of their policies and outright failing on others.
As far as I’m concerned, the worst case scenario (by a very large margin) is another Tory government. I’ll be doing everything I can this side of campaigning for Labour (my MP is Labour and he’s alright, my local councillors are also Labour and active and all the ball, but I can’t bring myself to actual promote a party who’s policies I struggle to endorse). So that’s mainly sending out tactical voting information and offering lifts to the polling stations.
@Emperor I agree, Tory is worst. I don’t have to let a not good enough Labour think they are good enough.
Recall I *told* Labour they lost my vote, that doesn’t mean I can’t exercise my vote in any way that effectively gets the Tories out, which includes actually voting for Labour.
The Torys thank you for your abstention, and look forward to enacting policies which enrich themselves at your expense.
@Overzeetop That’s another way of accusing me of being a Tory enabler. The point being as I have said elsewhere, is that what I tell labour I will do and what I do, are not their or anyone else’s concern.
In the meantime I can lobby for policy change in any way I see fit, as can anyone else, in a democracy as it currently stands.
It isn’t a simple dichotomy, despite FPTP.“As far as I can ascertain, Conservatives voters fall into one or more of these categories;”
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1690002613842886656.htmlAnd I believe you should do everything to lobby for what you feel is correct - and if that’s left (or north or south or whatever) of Labor, hell yes. I was, indeed, being hyperbolic. (I also saw your edit :-)
Agree or disagree, elections are not fractional representations (at least nowhere I’m aware, for national). There is one winner who gets 100% of the say, so try to be pragmatic on the one day you cast your vote. On the rest, give 'em hell.
@Overzeetop My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
Holy shit - that’s awesome; I hope they’re receptive!
@Overzeetop
No call yesterday, another email sent to make a telephone appointment, still no policy documents received, or acknowledgement of the email!
Same. Their acceptance of current Tory actions like not revoking new oil and gas licenses and child benefit cap. Also watering down their own environmental policy. These things in our current situation are inexcusable.
They pander to Tory voters, bigots, and stay on the side of big business and the media.
The Greens have my vote.
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@snacks
I think it’s important for me as the OP to point out that telling Labour they’ve lost my vote is as important as my vote.
If there’s a lack of push-back from the left regarding Labour’s movement right, then they will assume this is what the voting public want.
I’m certain there are others that share at least some of my views on this.
A this late stage, the LibDems or Greens can’t make a push to win.
I also cc’d my local LibDems and Greens in the same email re: a coalition strategy.Yeah I don’t see any point throwing a vote to a party that no longer has any of your interests at heart, if anything it just reinforces their decision if you do that
@solivine Agreed, but I’d caveat that there are policies that I may find worthy of my vote, it’s just that there are many red lines and more that I’ve spelt out, that I don’t wish to cross.
Because there is a difference between 5 years of bad and 5 years of worse, and not actively voting for the bad party will in most cases give a mathematical advantage to the worse party.
@snacks My email has struck a chord and I’ve had a response today. My local Labour parliamentary candidate wants to chat with me. I’ll see what they have to say and report back.
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the right, any “more progressive” party that has a chance of getting into power kinda has to play to the crowd. It’ll take time for it to shift back to a more “familiar” (centre) left.
This is such a Colin post
@rayquetzalcoatl We are a monolith
I do feel you on some issues here. Others like Europe I think are well left alone this election after the last election was a one topic vote eventually.
Personally I’ll still be voting labour, as things stand, mainly because my MP is an old school labour type and having people like that lose and leave the party doesn’t help to shift it leftwards again and also there was only a few thousand in it last time and a neutered version of labour is still preferable to more Tories.
However Starmers leadership has made it feel less like holding my nose to got and more like I need a full hazmat suit.
UK Labour are too Tory for me.
Absolutely right.
It doesn’t matter who you vote for now. I don’t think it ever has (except perhaps in 1945). Social change in this country happens outside parliamentary politics. One of the big lies that we’ve allowed to become accepted is that changes to society happen as a result of MPs debating in parliament. They don’t.
Westminster politics is an entertainment used to distract us from taking action .
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