Heels-dug-in defiance to the idea is not reassuring.
As a Canadian watching this, knowing that his loss would accelerate the shift to a dictatorship south of the border, it’s so disheartening. What is wrong with the Democrats, it’s bizarre. I can’t even imagine having to vote for a candidate like him, that it’s even a question when his opponent is such an absolute clown. It’s the dumbest timeline.
This was interesting to listen to, the only thing left is single issue voting. A vote for whatever is put across from Trump, regardless of who or what it is, opens the chance for another election to try again.
On the one hand, it’s a tradition at this point to always run the incumbent. In most cases, it’s a slam dunk win unless things went really wrong. (say a pandemic)
The difference now is that I don’t think we’ve ever had presidents get this old. I think Reagan ended this old but no one has ever run for office this old. And I can’t blame a guy for getting old like I can blame a guy for spouting lies and vitriol. I do think it’s time for an upper age limit for office though. If people can be too young, they can be too old. And it seems like people are living long enough to get to test it.
But on the other hand, there just aren’t any democrats that came close to winning the primary, wether because of the first hand tradition or because they just didn’t have anything good to bring to the table I’m not sure.
And when the opposition is as sturdy as Trump, it’s not the time to play games with untested newbies, you know? So you try to bring up your battle hardened best, even if he might be getting up there in years.
That said, before the debate, I felt like he had the ability. He’s been strong at previous public appearances. I truly hope this is a fluke, and he wipes the floor with Trump at the next debate. Because otherwise we are screwed, either because Biden fades out on us or Trump gets to try for his racist autocracy.
Gonna need that debate to be at 2pm… 9pm was way past Joey’s bedtime.
I mean, given my work schedule it was late for me too. But it was an OK time for the other coast I suppose. Good thing I have a DVR.
Old age aside, that’s the curse of campaigning while actively President I think. Biden’s been up since god knows when hearing reports, making tactical decisions, worrying about multiple wars, working the reporters, navigating security concerns and doing his job, while also having to rehearse what he can anticipate, get to the studio and get all made up and go on TV. I’d be fried at the tail end of such a day too.
Trump probably threw a party, napped, popped some strong pills, printed another copy of his same old rally speech and came out of a hotel across the street ready to blame some immigrants for the sun going down.
Maybe we should get the VP to run the country on important days like debates so the active president can get the same treatment as the guy with nothing better to do?
Maybe we should switch to a single term limit… That way the president never has to be distracted by campaigning.
In most cases, it’s a slam dunk win unless things went really wrong. (say a pandemic)
I think people are severely overestimating how much of an impact being an incumbent actually has with the final results. In smaller elections this definitely has a big impact, but in the entirety of the US history we’ve only had 27 presidents run for reelection, and 9 of them have lost.
That’s a ~67% win rate for incumbent presidents, which isn’t terrible, but isn’t great either, and with a terrible sample size.
67% is massive what are you talking about? When you were gearing up for it I thought you were going to give away lower number and then you said that holy crap. Now I’m even more convinced he should still run.
What is wrong with the Democrats, it’s bizarre.
The republican-adjacent wing of the party has the candidate they want, and they’re so unforgivably pigheaded that they would rather lose democracy forever than change.
Ever read up on the elections in Germany that led to Hitler’s rise?
The millionaires and billionaires that have paid for all these nominees think Trump will: 1. cut regulations for them, & 2. he’ll be easy to control.
Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
(I admit, there’s also a bit of 3. help get Israel to start WWIII so all them rich white folks can get raptured, which is one of the reasons Biden also is supporting Israel.)
Watching this from across the big sea I get the feeling they want Trump to win just to avoid civil unrest. Maybe the thinking is 4 years Trump will do less harm than another January Coup d’état.
Actually, I have no clue what’s going on over there. It’s like a very bad accident you can’t stop looking at.
I mean replacing his as the candidate this late and when he’s the incumbent president is honestly madness.
The only reason the media is pushing for it is because it would generate more clicks. Bit him being replaces and the ensuing trump second term.
I’d argue madness is sticking with a candidate who now has virtually zero chance of winning what should be an easy race with anyone else. Democrats have stuck their head in the sand way too many times. They did it with how unpopular Hillary was in 2016. They did it with RBG not retiring. And now They’re doing it again.
This is the simple, undeniable truth: Biden is extremely unpopular. One could argue he might win, but that’s the best you can do. A remote, unlikely possibility that he could beat what should be the least electable person in history.
I don’t think so honestly. Biden is deeply unpopular, I think that if he were to step down soon the DNC could pretty much offer up anyone who’s not Hillary Clinton and have just as good a chance of winning if not better (depending on their choice of candidate). The people who “vote blue no matter who” are going to literally vote for any democrat who gets the nomination, so you can only gain potential voters by getting rid of Biden. There’s nothing to lose with him stepping down, the sliver of undecided voters just abandoned him after that debate and him giving the finger to the left and saying “We don’t need you.” has made him, specifically, really toxic this cycle.
People are really underestimating how much contempt there is for Biden is at this moment, he’s polling even with Trump if you’re charitable. The genocide and his hawkish immigration policy has made it impossible for a lot of people to hold their nose this time.
Yeah hubris probably isn’t the way to go when you’re losing in national polls 10 pts below where you were in 2020 at this time… And you’re losing in every battleground state… And you’re losing black and Hispanic voters… And the desperation play of asking for this debate to break the steady decline in polling utterly backfired.
Riddle me this: what if Biden’s condition worsens from here until November and it’s far past the convention to do anything? He’s not getting younger. The bad days, the sundowning will only get worse.
People are itching to vote for anyone but a senile geratric and a criminal geriatric. Give the people what they want.
Are these Black and Hispanic voters going to the guy that talked about immigrants “taking Black jobs?” or eventually “taking Hispanic jobs too”? How can any minority vote for a man that is clearly a racist through and through. His father was a racist, arrested marching with the KKK, and they both got fined for not renting to people of color. He has a history of using minority and immigrant labor so he can threaten and cheat them out of pay. The list goes on and on. Biden may not be a saint (far from it), but he at least believes in democracy.
Also that debate was the perfect storm for Biden.
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- He was clearly getting over a cold and sounded like he needed to clear his throat the whole time.
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- Because of #1 it made overcoming his speech issues like his stutter all the more difficult, requiring more mental processing than normal.
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- The debate format of no guardrails and having 2 minutes to both try and state your talking points, and also trying to counter the absolute bullshit word salad of lies Trump was spewing his way was a lot to process for anyone, let alone an 81yr old.
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CNN gave in to the Right and dropped the fact checking that afternoon, but Biden really had no choice but to show up. Imagine what conspiracy theories would have come out of Biden pulling out last minute because his campaign knew it was going to be a shit show. You can’t reason with people acting in bad faith, and once the fact checking was removed this “debate” was a lose/lose situation for Biden.I read or heard this someplace around the time of the debate, but I’m unable to find it now.
I don’t disagree that Biden’s showing was disheartening, but I also think the fact that he was actually trying to convey a message, while having a firehouse of shit spewed at him from his right should factor into that as well. It was a “debate” with someone acting in bad faith and Joe trying to follow the rules, with basically no moderation at all. It wasn’t a debate, but more like trying to have a rational talk with a kid that just keeps sticking out his tongue and making fart noises.My in-laws are 1st gen immigrants. They literally crossed the border illegally to get here. They busted their ass to become citizens, and are generally great people.
They vote Trump.
I have actually heard from their mouths that the illegals coming into this country are ruining it. BITCH YOU WERE ONE!
They think Trump is a good business man, but above all else, being Catholic, they are so anti abortion, that Biden is the spawn of Satan for suggesting that abortion is an individuals choice, and nothing else matters.
This story is repeated over and over in the Hispanic communities.
I’m as flabbergasted as anyone that polls are this close but here we are. Right-wing media controls the narrative and has had a stranglehold on this country. The polls don’t lie; they’re the canary in the coal mine sounding the alarm. So let’s face it: there is no datapoint you can point to that Biden where Biden isn’t doing significantly-worse compared to his 2020 campaign. I don’t give a fuck how you try to spin it, that’s not a good sign. Face hard truths of reality. The propaganda of the right is working with key voting groups whether we like it or not.
Neither cold nor stutter causes someone to jump from abortion to immigration mid-sentence and routinely lose their train of thought. How much experience do you have being around old people? My wife and I work in a hospital, but shit you should he able to relate with grandparents in their 80s. It could even be sundowning. I also don’t believe your 3rd point is doing you any favors. Biden campaigned on being a fighter to push the bully back. If he can’t hold his own as an 81-year-old, then that is very clearly a problem. Someone as experienced as Biden should easily be able to hold their own in a debate, being in politics as long as he has.
Look, I voted for Biden once and if it comes down to it I’d vote for a corpse over Trump. But as I’ve said over and over again: it’s not me you have to convince. The 2020 election was won by 40,000 votes across 3 states. And as I said, by every single metric, Biden is performing far worse than then. Not good. I hate to say it but I’d bet against Biden winning now.
Biden asked for the debate out of desperation to reach voters. They set most of the rules. Both campaigns signed off on the rules. It backfired tremendously, irreparably.
I think the polls are close because only a certain subset of voters are in them.
Did you participate in the poll?
I ask because I didn’t. I’m not even sure how I could but can’t be bothered to figure it out, and it doesn’t seem like it means much.
I also asked my coworkers if they were in any of these polls. Out of the whole lunchroom, one old guy said he used to do them, years ago when they would call him and ask questions. But they haven’t in a long while.
So that’s a whole lunchroom not represented in the polls, and I doubt we’re the exception. But we will all be voting come November.
Let’s make it easy for Joe. He doesn’t have to counter everything. Just say, “Everything my opponent said is a lie.” “Again, he’s lying. Here’s the truth”. And then ignore it. You know T**** is going to lie. It’s a given. It’s a trap to try to refute, so just call it a lie and move on.
That might free up some mental power to focus on proper messaging and not melt down.
Well hindsight is always 20/20, and some of the topics you could tell Biden felt passionate about exacerbating his trouble articulating his thoughts. Overall I don’t think a “debate” is the correct format for trying to contrast himself with Trump. You can’t argue with the kid that is just going to stick out his tongue or make fart noises anytime you try and talk, and that is what Joe was trying to do with Trump.
Most people don’t have a political education nor do they follow political news. They vote based in vibes and a knee-jerk reaction to the party in power. You can launder a lot of self-destructive behavior in that recipe.
I can’t find anything to corroberate #4. Do you have a reference?
I mean they didn’t really correct anything that was incorrectly stated.
But if you insist.
I’m talking about the date and time of it being changed. You wrote:
dropped the fact checking that afternoon
But from what I can tell, the rules had been set for a couple of months.
Not the op you responded to, but, I suppose, it’s a fair question.
Although unsure of the timeline, the fact checking drop is something that was definitely agreed to by both parties before hand.
Maybe they’re referring to how “Before the debate, Biden allies tried to pressure the CNN moderators, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, to aggressively fact-check any false statements made by Mr. Trump. CNN leadership made clear that the moderators would facilitate the discussion but that any fact-checking would be left to the candidates.”. Like they had a chance to reconsider, but decided to stick with the original terms?
Sorry, I can’t find it now. I know I read or heard it around the time of the debate, but have no idea where at this point so I’ve noted such above. And up until I saw a post here on Lemmy about how much of a train wreck it was early on I wasn’t even going to watch the debate at all, because I already know I’m pro-democracy and that is really what this election is all about.
Thank you for fact checking me though, I don’t want to be the source of inaccurate information.
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I would vote for a potato before trump. Any sane person would at this point.
I would, too, but there are a lot of insane people in America these days my friend.
Please stop using this argument. It’s a classic echo chamber claim. If it was true there wouldn’t be people complaining, much less voting for Trump.
Completely expected for those on mental decline unfortunately
Yerp, it just reinforces him looking inflexible and old, committed more to some personal fantasy than what’s actually best for the country in reality.
Did you listen to what he said tho? When it was coherent it was a great platform policy wise.
He’s old. We get it. No one cares…the policy is still better than trump
A politician claiming they support a policy means nothing in modern politics, it only matters what they actually deliver and fight for. Biden is too corporate to do anything but waste everyone’s time. He adopted progressive policy points in 2020 because he was up against Sanders but then more or less abandoned those policies after they either got shot down by his party or were employed as temporary emergency measures (ex. Child tax credit).
Much of Biden’s left appearing policy is just a thin cover for pork barrel spending, and worse he will deliver these little bits here and there that provide nothing to build on and then pat himself on the back and sit back on his laurels like he did more than the barest of minimums.
I’m just not impressed with his actual policy achievments or goals, when you strip away all the big rhetoric there really isn’t that much there. Biden’s not a fighter and he gives the impression he doesn’t believe in any of the stuff he tepidly pushes for, he just figures he can’t only give gandouts to corporations or it becomes to obvious what he’s there to do.
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If you elect Biden with high probability we end up with i.) he dies on the job, ii.) he steps down during his term or iii.) he is removed by his cabinet. Just completely ridiculous to nominate anyone over 75, let alone 81. Mandatory retirement exists for a reason.
Well yeah… Him winning and then getting out of there would be ideal. Sadly, he is very unlikely to win at this point.
42% of Democrats in a post-debate Ipsos poll said that Biden is mentally fit.
Did those 42% see the same debate that I did? I don’t understand it.
The major parties are just cults at this point.
Same echo chamber that’s been rattling around Lemmy, accusing everyone who doesn’t worship Biden of being MAGA.
I’m not even a Democrat and I think he is more fit. He can at least answer a question about childcare without being asked 3 times like a 4 year old who is in trouble.
Why am I going to care for a candidate that doesn’t care enough about his country to answer the questions the people really want to know? For one that can’t accept that he is a felon? That cannot be a real man and own up to his actions?
He’s soft. He’s stupid. And he ain’t worth my vote.
I am voting for Biden and everyone else who doesn’t want fascism should too, but I am so fucking beaten down by the Democrats hand picking terrible candidates, and our court system is already so destroyed it may not matter if Biden even wins.
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They’ve helpfully spelled it out for us with Project 2025.
But genocide is ok
Nowhere in that statement does it say it’s ok
https://youtu.be/KbOet85eiFI?si=AG5L5MVkfXhFARpG
“Let em go. And let em finish the job. He (Biden) doesn’t want to do it. He’s become like a Palestinian.”
Not Hamas. Trump said let Isreal go after the Palestinians.
Genocide, or fascism and more genocide. It’s not a hard choice.
I keep seeing this like Donald Trump is going to eliminate genocide if elected. What a braindead comment.
What’s the term I’m looking for…? Swedish fish? Hákarl? Wait, it’s herring! Red herring!
From what I saw last week, he’s going to pull a Feinstein.
Do the democrats actually have anyone worth putting up instead of Biden? Like what’s the alternatives?
Surely they must have at least one young guy from Texas that wears a cowboy hat or something.
Sure sure, there are dozens of options. That’s not the issue. IMO internal DNC power is what is at play. It doesn’t matter what Biden does because he’ll retire soon, but a young leader would take power away from corporate backers for decades to come.
Also, to hell with the Times.
Any two party voting system is a terrible, terrible system. New Zealand changed theirs and it’s much better now (according to Kiwis I spoke to).
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/opinion/joe-biden-2020-nytimes-endorsement.html
Why wouldn’t Daily Beast check first before reporting he said this?
He didn’t get endorsed in the primary, but did in the general.
What exactly are you saying Daily Beast got wrong here? They said he wasn’t endorsed and won. Are you saying that isn’t true? Because you also seem to acknowledge that he won that race
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They’re the mascot for confidently incorrect.
He was not endorsed in the primary.
He was endorsed in the general in 2020.
Biden didn’t win be a lot by 2020. But he has a habit of telling anyone that doesn’t support him 100% that he doesn’t need them
I thought it was a pretty obvious issue.
Edit:
I mean. He’s responding to criticism he might not be able to win the general, are you saying he was talking about the primary?
Is this just him getting confused again?
Can you provide a quote from the article. I don’t see anything factually wrong.
Can you provide a quote from the article
So you want a quote from the article titled:
Elect Joe Biden America
That has a byline of the entire Times editorial board …
To show they the Times endorsed Biden last election?
Are you sure the headline isn’t enough?
This has nothing to do with the general.
The NYT is now calling for Democrats to nominate someone other than Biden.
Biden is pointing out that the NYT did the same in 2020, but Democrats nominated Biden anyway. In other words, who cares what the NYT wants?
According to Biden,
- Trump is a once in a generation threat to democracy that must be defeated at any cost.
- He, Biden, an 81 year old guy with even lower approval ratings than Trump, should be the guy who goes up against Trump. Nobody else on the D bench should be allowed to try.
Great logic.
Oh by the way, there are no signs that Sotomayor is planning to retire either…
Nobody else in the D bench polls better against Trump.
Half of that table has no fucking data, and you’re saying that Biden is better than the competition?!?
Brand new data shows that no Democrat outperforms Biden against Trump.
Also, when asked who should replace Biden the clear favorite was Kamala Harris. So be careful what you wish for.
I would have loved to see the results if they had included any progressive possibilities in there… especially Bernie.
You’ve got to stop kidding yourself, most of america does not.share your/our political opinions, it feels like it when inside a bubble like on here but the wider reality of people who actually vote they’re not going to win.
Still would be nice to see the results if they had been included.
Gen z and millennials are far more progressive than Gen x or boomers. The “swing vote” this election is going to be young people… And they want a progressive candidate to get excited about or they are unlikely to show up enough to defeat Trump.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be Bernie, any true progressive will do… Bernie just has the most name recognition.
Harris performs the same as Biden in a head-to-head matchup against Trump.
So we get the same performance without concern for age, etc. what’s to lose?
Also, I didn’t see a MoE reported.
I’m not a fan of Harris, but we need to keep trump out of the WH.
We’d be trading concerns over Biden for concerns over Harris. If there is no improvement in performance, why bother?
Risk management. I’d rather someone unconnected to the administration, though.
There are significant risks to nominating Harris.
Do you not understand the power of incumbency??? Lol get a clue.
The incumbent just shit the bed on live tv and fell into the trap set by the degenerates. You can huff as much copium as you want, we’re fucked without a shakeup of some kind. Brandon has a chance, sure, especially if Trump chokes on a fucking hamberder, but that’s not a risk worth taking. Swapping him out for a charismatic leader is a risk worth taking. Now kindly fuck off.
They kinda set the trap themselves on that one. They took the risk of putting him on TV and he lost.
The previous incumbent lost during a major crisis, which is supposed to be like the most sure-fire way for a president to get re-elected.
I think the rulebook is taking a break at the moment.
Polling of hypotheticals is notoriously flaky. If a fresh D comes in as nominee, all the “have to beat Trump” talking points will still be there, and all the “this guy has dementia” talking points will be wiped away. It’s hard to imagine any other nominee having negatives that could be worse than credible accusations of dementia.
Edit: except for Harris.
Yeah. Newsom is a particularly great debater. I think he would give Trump a serious whipping.
Trump will never debate Newsome. He probably won’t debate Biden again.
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The very act of running for President would give them a bump to their poll numbers.
Why would it?
If anything, the opposite would occur. As soon as someone announces they are running against Trump, the personal attacks start and they become an object of constant public ridicule. Just ask Ron DeSantis.
The very act of campaigning effects poll numbers. Figures like Newsom are pretty obscure outside their states.
Also there’s quite a difference between running against Trump as a Republican and a Democrat. DeSantis had to contend with his own Party being divided. A hypothetical Biden replacement would have the Party’s unified support.
The very act of campaigning tends to drag candidates down as their flaws are identified and hammered over and over.
That’s what happened to Dukakis, Gore, McCain, Clinton, etc. Even Obama, who in 2008 went from “inspirational DNC orator” to “inexperienced community activist”.
And that’s what’s happening to Biden.
The act of campaigning only drags candidates down when they suck 😉
This table is worthless
And yet it’s better then takes based on vibes
No one even knows who they are. Harris and Buttigieg are the best well known and neither stand a chance.
These are extremely old polling dates, and don’t reflect changes since
Biden’s polls have been fairly static or even slightly improved over time.
The other Democrats have done nothing to win over new voters, so there is no reason to think they would poll better against Trump today.
Its almost like the other democrats haven’t been running for office and building name recognition. I wonder why OH YEAH, DNC thought a democratic process was too divisive and would make their octogenarian look bad. Based on the debate, they sure were right! Their candidate cant take 3 steps away from a teleprompter.
Polls are meant to be moved, any of those other candidates would be in a better position than Biden within a few months.
Good thing he didn’t call them. They wouldn’t have understood his mumbling.
