I don’t think many people are saying that the morality of a genocide is complicated, but I think plenty of people ARE saying that classifying a genocide when no two look alike and both sides of the current conflict obfuscate and lie about the facts is complicated. A lot of people are saying that responding to a genocide occurring within an entrenched conflict in one of the most volatile regions on the globe where nearly every major world power has involvement and interests IS complicated. Many of those saying that international diplomacy is complicated understand that when the most important allies of a nation violating human rights pull their support too hard or too fast that that nation is likely to accelerate its plans to try and accomplish its goals before further repercussions prevent it.
We certainly shouldn’t let these complexities prevent us from speaking out regarding what we feel is right, but pretending they don’t exist only serves the most cynical and self-serving of political interests. Resolving human rights abuses is always more complicated than slapping a genocide or not genocide label on the situation and saying “genocide bad” or “not genocide okay.”
Let me break it down. If, tomorrow, Uncle Sam grabbed Nettanyahu by the balls and said “stop it or I’m going to fucking give you the Saddam treatment”, they’d listen. Honest to goodness, Benny knows as well as anyone that we could hand deliver a drone strike to his testicles with millimeter precision within three minutes of deciding to do so. And while I recognize any of those would be political suicide, I also thing that, realistically, I think it would take far, far less than that to bring this operation to a standstill.
That may be so, but it doesn’t stop it from being a complicated situation. What happens to US international relations when the rest of their allies come to the conclusion that they’ll be met with bombs and threats when they don’t respond to requests the way the US wants? If the US does far, far less, how much less is enough and how much is too much? What happens when Iran, its proxies, and other adversaries of Israel realize that its biggest ally no longer has its back?
I’m not telling you that calling for an end to the bloodshed is wrong, it’s not. I’m not telling you that the United States and the international community are doing enough to pressure Israel to respect human rights. I don’t think anyone knows enough of what’s going on behind the scenes to say for certain that enough is being done and what’s going on in front of our eyes says that more is required. What I am saying is that complex, world issues are complex and we cannot have a full understanding of them, nor a productive discussion about them unless we acknowledge their complexities.
Edit: I do appreciate the breakdown of how a threat works though.
We already do make threats (of varying kinds, usually financial) to control our allies, as well as our enemies. We’ve caused whole ass revolutions because fruit companies stood to lose money. The US plays dirty whenever we want and lose zero sleep about it, and I see no reason why stopping genocide should suddenly be a case for doing everything above board. I mean, really, I’m not buying it that the same country that said “fuck ur laws lol” and teabagged Osama Bin Ladin in the middle of the night and has declared itself beyond the reach of the ICC is suddenly tied up by international laws and relationships and is just simply helpless to do anything but build a dock that can’t even float.
Yeah a lot of the .ml guys love genocide when the victims are Ukrainians or Uyghurs. Or Palestinians, they want Donald in office to help Israel genocide faster.
No I don’t. I just think it’s more complicated than just leaving Israel out of it. As much as I hate what they are doing, what is being done is not by us personally. The complications come with all the supplies. It’s not as simple on an ally front to just pull support.
Yeah, great thinking. Muslim ban guy saying “Israel should finish the job” and the party that wants to deport protesters, have the National Guard brutalize protesters, and/or nuke Gaza will do a better job here.
Please get a clue.
Even on this issue alone Donald will be doing more genocide. That’s in addition to the numerous crimes and corruption he will do. He will certainly increase the deaths of Ukrainians as well.
It’s very tiresome to hear the disingenuous shit, even when it is from genuine and earnest useful idiots instead of cosplaying redcaps.
The thing is Bibi wants Donald to win because he knows Repubs will accelerate the genocide. You love the genocide so you also want Donald to win. You want Ukrainians to be slaughtered.
Yeah but nobody is saying genocide isn’t always bad. They may try to pretend it’s not genocide. Or that it would be genocide with trump too. Just not what the meme suggests
People being cagey about language that discourages turnout is not the same as condoning genocide, if anything it’s being paranoid about the genocide coming here too.
Yeah I get that. It just looks real fucking bad how a lot of people seem more bothered about “discouraging turnout” than the actual genocide going on. Despite not being American I do care about the outcome, but not as much as what is happening right now.
being paranoid about the genocide coming here too.
Lol imagine if you didn’t have to “be paranoid” because it was actually happening. Obviously Americans should care about American politics but this is the most privileged take given the situation
Telling a Palestinian they’re privileged because they don’t want a genocide against their people to spread to the diaspora too because a buncha white kids “I’M HELPING!”-ed a slate of fascists into power is definitely a fucking take.
So are you saying if Trump gets into power the genocide will spread to the Palestinian diaspora in the US too? I really think the actual thing which is actually happening deserves criticism right now. Talking about these theoretical outcomes if (theoretically) enough people vote for the fascist convicted felon does not take away from the current reality of what Biden is doing.
This is an argument for the voting booth. I agree with you there. But I think the point of the meme is that these conversations get bogged down in this shit immediately.
I don’t care that you’re Palestinian. Perhaps privileged was a bit much but this take is really just a misdirection, and it doesn’t help the Palestinians that are actually dying right now.
“Supporting genocide bad”
Leads to…
“Oh sweet summer child let me explain the broken American political system to you…”
Ain’t nobody saying that
I’m going to start collecting receipts for the very next time I see a comment like this, because people are definitely saying that.
I don’t think many people are saying that the morality of a genocide is complicated, but I think plenty of people ARE saying that classifying a genocide when no two look alike and both sides of the current conflict obfuscate and lie about the facts is complicated. A lot of people are saying that responding to a genocide occurring within an entrenched conflict in one of the most volatile regions on the globe where nearly every major world power has involvement and interests IS complicated. Many of those saying that international diplomacy is complicated understand that when the most important allies of a nation violating human rights pull their support too hard or too fast that that nation is likely to accelerate its plans to try and accomplish its goals before further repercussions prevent it.
We certainly shouldn’t let these complexities prevent us from speaking out regarding what we feel is right, but pretending they don’t exist only serves the most cynical and self-serving of political interests. Resolving human rights abuses is always more complicated than slapping a genocide or not genocide label on the situation and saying “genocide bad” or “not genocide okay.”
Let me break it down. If, tomorrow, Uncle Sam grabbed Nettanyahu by the balls and said “stop it or I’m going to fucking give you the Saddam treatment”, they’d listen. Honest to goodness, Benny knows as well as anyone that we could hand deliver a drone strike to his testicles with millimeter precision within three minutes of deciding to do so. And while I recognize any of those would be political suicide, I also thing that, realistically, I think it would take far, far less than that to bring this operation to a standstill.
That may be so, but it doesn’t stop it from being a complicated situation. What happens to US international relations when the rest of their allies come to the conclusion that they’ll be met with bombs and threats when they don’t respond to requests the way the US wants? If the US does far, far less, how much less is enough and how much is too much? What happens when Iran, its proxies, and other adversaries of Israel realize that its biggest ally no longer has its back?
I’m not telling you that calling for an end to the bloodshed is wrong, it’s not. I’m not telling you that the United States and the international community are doing enough to pressure Israel to respect human rights. I don’t think anyone knows enough of what’s going on behind the scenes to say for certain that enough is being done and what’s going on in front of our eyes says that more is required. What I am saying is that complex, world issues are complex and we cannot have a full understanding of them, nor a productive discussion about them unless we acknowledge their complexities.
Edit: I do appreciate the breakdown of how a threat works though.
Someone who stands outside of ideology and thinks.
Thank you.
_ /\ _
We already do make threats (of varying kinds, usually financial) to control our allies, as well as our enemies. We’ve caused whole ass revolutions because fruit companies stood to lose money. The US plays dirty whenever we want and lose zero sleep about it, and I see no reason why stopping genocide should suddenly be a case for doing everything above board. I mean, really, I’m not buying it that the same country that said “fuck ur laws lol” and teabagged Osama Bin Ladin in the middle of the night and has declared itself beyond the reach of the ICC is suddenly tied up by international laws and relationships and is just simply helpless to do anything but build a dock that can’t even float.
Bruh people say that here… on lemmy… all the time.
Yeah a lot of the .ml guys love genocide when the victims are Ukrainians or Uyghurs. Or Palestinians, they want Donald in office to help Israel genocide faster.
No I don’t. I just think it’s more complicated than just leaving Israel out of it. As much as I hate what they are doing, what is being done is not by us personally. The complications come with all the supplies. It’s not as simple on an ally front to just pull support.
“BuT wHaT aBoUt…” And “Donald Trump would be worse”
Are we playing liberal bingo? Next tell me that the president can’t change diplomatic policy, I’ve almost got a whole line.
Yeah, great thinking. Muslim ban guy saying “Israel should finish the job” and the party that wants to deport protesters, have the National Guard brutalize protesters, and/or nuke Gaza will do a better job here.
Please get a clue.
Even on this issue alone Donald will be doing more genocide. That’s in addition to the numerous crimes and corruption he will do. He will certainly increase the deaths of Ukrainians as well.
It’s very tiresome to hear the disingenuous shit, even when it is from genuine and earnest useful idiots instead of cosplaying redcaps.
And that’s a bingo! Thanks for playing!
The thing is Bibi wants Donald to win because he knows Repubs will accelerate the genocide. You love the genocide so you also want Donald to win. You want Ukrainians to be slaughtered.
You’ve already filled the bingo card, you don’t need to continue screeching.
The next Israel thread you see, go point out how Biden is a piece of shit for supporting a genocide and see what happens
Yeah but nobody is saying genocide isn’t always bad. They may try to pretend it’s not genocide. Or that it would be genocide with trump too. Just not what the meme suggests
Yeah ok fair point. I guess that was what the “it’s complicated” is going for? Otherwise yeah the meme is just silly
People being cagey about language that discourages turnout is not the same as condoning genocide, if anything it’s being paranoid about the genocide coming here too.
Yeah I get that. It just looks real fucking bad how a lot of people seem more bothered about “discouraging turnout” than the actual genocide going on. Despite not being American I do care about the outcome, but not as much as what is happening right now.
Lol imagine if you didn’t have to “be paranoid” because it was actually happening. Obviously Americans should care about American politics but this is the most privileged take given the situation
Telling a Palestinian they’re privileged because they don’t want a genocide against their people to spread to the diaspora too because a buncha white kids “I’M HELPING!”-ed a slate of fascists into power is definitely a fucking take.
So are you saying if Trump gets into power the genocide will spread to the Palestinian diaspora in the US too? I really think the actual thing which is actually happening deserves criticism right now. Talking about these theoretical outcomes if (theoretically) enough people vote for the fascist convicted felon does not take away from the current reality of what Biden is doing.
This is an argument for the voting booth. I agree with you there. But I think the point of the meme is that these conversations get bogged down in this shit immediately.
I don’t care that you’re Palestinian. Perhaps privileged was a bit much but this take is really just a misdirection, and it doesn’t help the Palestinians that are actually dying right now.
“Supporting genocide bad”
Leads to…
“Oh sweet summer child let me explain the broken American political system to you…”
Not…
“Yes supporting genocide bad”