Thoughts? I live in a wintery biome so having awd gives me a bit of peace of mind
I think I agree with you. The author mentions AWD in snow as a minor passing thing in a way you can tell they haven’t lived somewhere with it.
But that said I haven’t driven an EV and I’d be worried about the extra direct torque they can provide making starting on ice or snowpack more difficult and dangerous.
I’ve owned two EVs, and that instant torque is much more of a pro than a con, even in the snow. Think about traction control: when the computer detects a loss of traction, it cuts power to the motor until it detects traction has been regained. In a gas powered car, you can really only change the flow of gas a couple times per second, because there’s some delay between applying throttle, waiting for ignition, etc. But in an EV, you can modulate the power upwards of a thousand times per second, and it gets applied to the wheels practically instantly. So when you slip in the snow, the traction control can react far faster.
My first EV was RWD and I would say that winter performance was comparable to my FWD sedans that I drove before, because the weight is distributed much more evenly, and that traction control is amazing.
My current EV is AWD and even on all season tires, it’s insane. Obviously no powertrain helps you stop if you don’t have snow tires, but for starting off in rough traction, it’s insane. Comparing my car to our Honda CRV, it’s wildly different. I can basically drive the car like there’s no snow on the ground (except I leave a massive gap in front in case I need to stop). The CRV slides all over the place
Sorry for rambling, I’m just a bit of an EV evangelist, and snow is somewhere that they really shine
My experience has been that on steep, snowy roads heavy EVs struggle. It could have been that they all had the wrong tires but going up Berthoud pass I’ve seen a handful of Tesla Ys and Xs doing their best Tokyo drift impressions trying to just get up the hill - virtually zero traction and sideways struggling to even stay moving much less staying in their lane
I will say my FWD EV isn’t as good in snow as my old AWD/4×4 Jeep, or even my old Ford Taurus. I do notice the extra weight in snow, and the centre of gravity is closer to the battery pack, not the “engine”, at least middle not front. I think a RWD EV might be a little better.
Still, just drive to the conditions. I’m not going to cross the Coquihalla or the Malahat in winter conditions either.
Yeah, heavy cars definitely do worse in general, especially if they’re on shitty tires. I’d love to get snow tires but we only get two or three days a year where the weather is bad enough to justify them, and they’re too damn expensive, so we just stay home when the roads are bad
Weight is good on snowy roads in some circumstances, but not for going up hills.
That’s only half of what traction control is. The other half is applying the brake to the slipping wheel to divert power back through the differential to the stuck wheel. That braking control is electric, and while I don’t think it operates with PWM, it can be applied many times per second.
Depends where you live with lots of snow. If you’re not emergency personnel and you live in a major metropolitan area with good salting and plowing? You absolutely do not need AWD. If you’re like in the GTA or the Chicago sprawl you’ll be fine - make sure to pick up your groceries the day before the blizzard. Any day where the roads are bad-enough to need an all-terrain vehicle, everything will be closed anyways. The only urban places I’d be tempted by AWD would be the Prairies Provinces, where they sometimes get snow below -10C (usually it’s bone dry here in Ontario when it gets below -10C) and salt can’t melt that so they just dump in some grit and hope. At least it’s pretty flat there.
However, if you live rural? Absolutely. My in-laws live in a hilly rural area and I’ve tried visiting them in an FWD minivan in the winter. Do not recommend.
I’ve needed AWD in Houston in the summer to get up driveways because of a thin film of oil or some gravel.
And rural driveawys in hilly areas.
FYI: Winter driving modes on most EVs limit the amount of torque from launch to adjust for reduced grip on surfaces like snow and ice.
I live in one of the snowiest states and have never had AWD. Never gotten stuck in 25+ years.
That said, my next EV will be AWD because I want the power and there is very little mileage penalty.
I’ve driven an EV for five years and made a 50km daily one way commute over rural, highway and city streets for 15 years. I live in Canada and we get snow , freezing rain and more weather. In my experience good driving habits > AWD all day everyday.
Pay attention to the road conditions, don’t drive faster than the weather will allow, get winter tires, keep your brakes maintained, drive a safe speed even when others are impatient, leave room to stop, if the weather is bad enough don’t leave at all, if you must leave plan to leave early enough that you aren’t tempted to make bad driving decisions such as speeding. This isn’t rocket science, but over the last 15 years and 540,000 km I have seen several impatient people pass me in the winter weather just to end up seeing them again in the ditch within 10 minutes. That includes 1 4x4 truck, 1 AWD SUV and at least 2 sedans.
The Bros in the truck all had to climb out the passenger side since it landed on its drivers side, the lady in the SUV was stuck down in the gutter and told me not to worry, she’d call a tow, and in the case of one sedan I ended up driving this small family home, car seat and all. Will AWD help you get yourself out of a slick parking spot, or start up at a red light? Sure, maybe, it depends. But it isn’t really going to help with much else and doesn’t come close to just learning to drive to the conditions.
Adding to this, AWD gives people a false sense of security and often leads to riskier driving behavior. It’s just like you said, there is absolutely no substitute for knowing how to handle difficult road conditions, anything that extends your confidence beyond your ability is dangerous.
By this logic, use summer tires in the winter.
I use all season tires year round. Unless you live in a very remote or hot part of the world: anytime it snows the city/county/state brings out the plows and salt and cleans the road. Yes winter tires are better on ice, but in reality you are almost never driving on ice anyway so it doesn’t make much a difference. Just slow down when it is icy and summer tires are fine. And you need to do that anyway because winter tires are better, but they are not perfect.
That was absolutely not my point. My point is that that logic would suggest that you have false sense of security by using all season tires.
Are you saying 2wd is safer than awd?
If good driving skill is equal, I mean.
Edit: since bluegill blocked me, ill update here… the argument could then be extended to saying summer tires is safer because it reminds you how bad things are, too
You mentioned in another thread to use all seasons instead of winter tires, so I won’t take safety advice from you on anything to be honest.
What do you mean by “good driving skill?” Humans almost all get over confident if they don’t get constant feedback that things are slippery, so 2wd with the constant reminder that things are bad will give you that feedback and thus you drive slower, which in turn makes it seem like you are a better driver who doesn’t get overconfident.
If you can avoid the over confidence problem and drive as slow as conditions demand, AWD is better because when you must stop at an intersect you can accelerate out of the stop sign faster and thus clear the intersection before the next idiot going too fast slides around a blind corner and into it. However I have no confidence that you can avoid that over confidence and so 2wd is safer because most of the time you are not in an intersection.
I didn’t block you, I don’t know what you mean, I’m also not the person who uses all seasons.
Apologies, I was intending to reply to bluegill
I assume you mean me (but there is intentionally no e in my name) . I did not block you. Just double checked to make sure if hadn’t on accident .
I’d think AWD is for traction, not ‘the track’.
I’ve owned several FWD EVs in what I’d consider the wintery parts of BC (snowfall of 8+ meters anually) and the amount of times I got stuck as a result of not having AWD can be counted on one hand. Good driving habits and high-end winter tires are much, much more important than having AWD or not.
That said, the times I did get stuck were mostly a bit annoying if not embarassing (due to holding up traffic). Only once (while climbing a steep hill) did it actually get a bit sketchy due to backsliding, but that happened to every vehicle that had to come to a stop on that hill.
I’ll take good tires over AWD any day in a Saskatchewan winter. It’s interesting how influenced people have become to essentially the opposite of safety measures. AWD doesn’t help you stop, and taller bigger vehicles aren’t safer, they’re much more likely to roll.
AWD is one thing, but a real issue is FWD vs RWD. Driving a RWD stick shift in northern MN was insane. Fun to drift around corners, but I’d get stuck on hills so small as to be imperceptible.
Wouldn’t you want to avoid those, even if it isn’t common?
I mean, doesn’t that depend on the cost?
If it was $100 increase to avoid that, sure.
But if it’s significantly more, then I’ll take the cheaper car.
Funny you say that, because 100 bucks is usually the difference between budget winter tires and premium winter tires. You’d be surprised how many people still pick the budget option.
Yes sure, but not at any cost. Not only are they generally more expensive to own, insure, and maintain, AWD adds weight to a vehicle which makes it harder to stop. The best winter car I’ve ever owned to this day is still a small Fiat Panda. It was FWD and tiny, but importantly very light and with all the primary weight over the driven wheels. With good (studded) winter tires it got up hills in snow where my wife’s AWD SUV was struggling.
AWD is awesome. I love my subie. But don’t delude yourself. In ski resort parking lots I’ve seen FWD shitboxes drive around stuck 4WD pickups because they just slammed the gas and their shitty tires couldn’t make it up a hill. Good driving habits > good tires > all wheel drive. All three is awesome, but you should worry about winter driving in that order
I’ve seen FWD shitboxes drive around stuck 4WD pickups
This is me, I love driving in winter and I drive an old manual civic. Last winter I drove through the mountains between the Saguenay and the Malbaie (Quebec) during a couple of good blizzards. It’s a winter wonderland. You have to be really good at driving when your car’s basically belly on snow though and I can’t tell you how many SUVs are constantly in ditches along the 170.
Totally agree. But I’d rather have good driving habits, good tires, and awd than just the first two.
I dont buy the argument from others that being safer means you will drive less safely.
If I saw a study that showed a clear increase in preventable accidents in awd vehicles in winter, I would reconsider my position that awd is generally better than fwd
Awd doesnt help you stop or turn. Thats when you go in the ditch and get stuck. AWD is not a safety feature unless you live in the mountains.
And yet IHS found it to be safer to have an awd. /shrug
Correlation or causation?
I’d ask the same for all the anecdotes ive seen in the thread saying awd is less safe
Sure, but you might as well show your IHS source first.
I did earlier in the thread
Here in the Midwest everyone is super cautious on that first snow in January.
Then that last one in March there’s tons of vehicles in the ditches as people become overconfident.
If it’s is really bad you can get lockers on your differential which can make a big difference (but if you don’t use them right they can make some slippery situations worse, and in the worst case cause expensive damage to your truck.
This article makes two points that I wish every driver was aware of.
No matter how fast you’d like to go (or how fast the manufacturer says you can go), there’s only so much power you can deploy safely (and legally) on public roads.
Yes. Spending thousands extra on an 800 hp monster is NOT worth it for the vast majority of car buyers.
All-wheel-drive is a significant reason buyers flock to dual-motor EVs. But AWD is overrated. It can help you start in the winter. But it doesn’t help you stop.
Inertia does not care if your car has two or four wheel drive. Stopping distance depends mostly on the mass of your vehicle, the condition of your brakes, and the road surface. The number of wheels connected to the engine doesn’t matter at all. It’s purely a physics problem, and physics doesn’t fuck around. Of course, you should still make the best choice for your needs… just be sure you understand what AWD can and cannot do.
Driving in snow is about more than just stopping power. I live in the country and driving through snow drifts can sometimes mean two wheels end up in ice conditions and two on dry pavement. Improved traction helps in this case as well.
Totally. That’s why I just edited my comment to include that “make the best choice for your needs” bit.
I live in New Jersey, so I have a some experience driving in snow, but not as much as you probably do.
I saw an article on how Paris is going to add a punitive tax on SUVs and other overszied cars. Seems like an (edit: legitimately) great idea.
I wonder if it only pertains to households under a certain income level, kind of like their ban on shorthaul flights.
Reading the article, its just higher parking fees. So yeah, just a poor people tax.
Oh god please yes. Got a link?
Wow. It really does. If this actually happens, I’ll be delighted.
Edit: I’d like this to go into effect throughout France, rather than just being limited to Paris. Also, I hope the term “auto-besity” catches on.
For our non-expert English speakers, yes, the above comment is absolutely dripping with sarcasm.
No Sarcasm, I edited in a link
Yeah, and I was reading too many acronyms and misunderstood things. I deleted my comment.
You forgot tires in that stopping equation. Do you live someplace with a lot of snow and ice? Get really good winter tires. Only get studded tires if your winters are constant snow and ice in the ground, and there are some very good studless winter tires: blizzak, X-ice, hakkapeliita etc. Good winter tires will decrease your stopping distance compared to all season.
You’re right. I just realized a minute ago that I forgot to mention tires. Whoops! Well, the point is still valid, so I’ll leave it.
Stopping distance depends mostly on the mass of your vehicle, the condition of your brakes, and the road surface
And your tires, which are probably the most important factor in winter. Idiots buy AWD/4WD vehicles and then don’t bother with winter tires because they think all wheel drive means all wheel stop. Spoiler: all cars are all wheel stop
I live in Minnesota. While AWD isn’t a necessity, it is really great to have. My AWD ID.4 is amazing in the snow and ice. I didn’t read great things about the RWD winter handling. The extra acceleration/speed is fun, but I bought AWD for winter driving
Like greater Minneapolis–Saint Paul area or rural? I live in Southern Ontario and while we get bad blizzards, the GTA has such good salting and plowing I never find I’m worried about traction. But I know it does get worse winter in Minnesota, particularly if you’re in a rural area where there’s less road maintenance.
Rural. And I could get by (and have for most of my life) without AWD, but it definitely makes a difference, and is not as this article suggests just for the extra power.
Depending on where in Southern Ontario you live, there is a chance you live North of Minneapolis St Paul. There is also a good chance that the great lakes make your climate more mild as well.
Of course Ontario is big. If you go directly north from Minneapolis you end up in Ontario - but almost nobody lives in that part of Ontario.
AWD helps, but knowing your vehicle and how it performs in the snow, will get you further than fancy devices. Now having the skills AND the fancy devices will take you almost anywhere.
when I was a kid, living on the prairies, the first winter I had my driver’s licence I went out to this big huge and very empty parking lot and started off having fun doing doughnuts. but then I started getting a feel for how it responds when it’s on the edge of control. and was practicing skid turns, regaining control etc. A RCMP car eventually came by, and just sat there for a min or two. I was thinking Uh oh… but he flicked on his lights, and I came to a stop, he walked over and asked what I was doing. I guess I gave the correct answer “learning how to drive in the snow”. He told me he got a “stunting complaint”, but he could clearly see that I wasn’t doing it entirely for thrills, or I would have been just burning those doughnuts. He gave me a few tips, on how to recover from a skid better, and told me to knock it off at that location but told me about another lot I could try and practice a bit more.
That interaction has literally saved my life a number of times, by giving me the skills early on how to recover when the vehicle is at the edge of control. I worked a career driving, never ended up in the ditch (touch wood) and have driven through the hairiest storms you can imagine.
Learn your vehicle, learn how to push it to the edge, and how to come back. (but do so in a safe place)
I live in south-west Ontario and drive a RWD sports car all year round.
There’s nowhere I need to be that I can’t get to in the winter with the right tires and attitude. I’ve also driven it across to New Brunswick 3 times now over Christmas and through some gnarly snowstorms.
As long as the snow’s not building up on the road and bottoming me out, I’m good.
I’d guess better tires would help more than AWD. I owned a Suburu Legacy with stock tires and it wasn’t too good in the snow. I have a Volt now (still stock tires) and it’s scary in rain, so you have to watch your acceleration.
TLDR Invest in good tires
My approach is to do both
That TLDR applies to any vehicle in any condition. People tend to forget that there’s four postcard sized patches of rubber connecting you to the surface below your car, and that no fancy technology is going to help you if those four postcard sized patches aren’t able to properly grip the surface.
Getting good tires for the conditions you’re driving in will make your car safer, faster, and handle better - 100% of the time. It’s the biggest “bang for the buck” upgrade you can do to any car.
