I genuinely can’t understand it, like I can’t even come up with a single plausible way these people could think this way. How could you live in France, in the EU, intend to continue to live there because you obviously like it, and think that your home country needs to do something different?
As somebody else pointed out above; “British exceptionalism”.
I was living in Britain at the time of the Leave vote and the vast majority of the Leave “arguments” were anchored in some way or other on the idea that Britons and Britain would get special treatment because of being who they are (remember the whole “German car manufacturers will make sure we have a good deal to keep access to the UK market” argument?).
Also I’m from a very touristic country and it’s pretty easy to notice the feeling of superiority of lots of Britons when they come here, especially old people.
(The funny bit its that I ended up in England after years in The Netherlands, so ended up with Northern European standards and hence was less than impressed by Britain by the time I got there in 2006)
Anyways, all this to say that it’s absolutelly believable that lots, maybe even most, of those older people who lived abroad after retiring (so never really integrated in the local society, as people actually working there would) did genuinelly believe the idea that Britons would get special treatment. I mean, here in Portugal they’re not especially well integrated but especially the stories from the Costas in Spain is of pretty much self-contained Little-England communities, english-speaking and with their own stores and everything, all filled with British retirees most of whom never go into the trouble of learning even the most basic Spanish.
PS: Just to add that some Remainer arguments were also of the British Exceptionalist kind. Specifically the whole idea of “We should stay in the EU and change it from the inside” also reeks of “we know best” and “the EU will change to accomodate us”.
That’s fair, thanks for your well thought out comment. I imagine most Europeans knowing your language can create a feeling of superiority.
The brexit arguments were pretty broad as well in terms of what the EU would do for us, so I suppose there may have been a pipe dream of maintaining the right to travel and remain. Ugh I don’t think I will ever not be angry about the outcome.
I always felt it was more of a “big country which was once an empire” problem.
Even my tiny Portugal has some level of “celebrating the greatness of the country” on account of what was done by people there 5 centuries ago (i.e. during the time of the Discoveries) and Britain’s “Glory Days” are closer in time, were even bigger and, maybe more importantly, unlike in my country were that kind of stuff is out of fashion because the Fascists were heavy users of it, there are frequent celebrations of past glories some way or another in British media and there is often a nationalistic slant in the reporting of international news (mainly of Britain being portrayed as more important and listenned to abroad than it actually is if you look at the coverage of the same news in other countries).
It’s understandable when you’ve spent your life seeing international news being reported always with a slant that makes Britain seem important (which it isn’t anymore than other similar-sized countries, and often looks kinda desperatelly trying to ride in the coat-tails of America, the real important ones) and were the Imperial past is constantly remembered (nowadays, mainly with films and TV series), one ends up believing “we’re special” and that was easilly weaponized by the Leave campaign and is still weaponized by the Tories.
Most Brexiter arguments wouldn’t at all be believable for those with a realistic and informed view about Britain’s position in the World, the view of Britain abroad and the balance of power between the rest of the EU and the UK.
some Remainer arguments were also of the British Exceptionalist kind. Specifically the whole idea of “We should stay in the EU and change it from the inside” also reeks of “we know best” and “the EU will change to accomodate us”.
To be fair, while it comes across as snotty arrogance, the idea of negotiating with the other member states to steer the Union in your favour is a power and responsibility of every member state.
The British relationship with the rest of the EU was, at least by the time I moved to Britain (so, 2006), adversarial (win-loose) rather than cooperative (win-win), the latter being more common in the rest of Europe, especially smaller nations.
Also keep in mind that this was following Cammeron’s demands for Britain to be allowed to limit Free Movement from the rest of the EU into Britain but not the other way around (i.e. Britons still kept that right, just stopped reciprocating it) “or else we’ll have a Referendum on leaving the EU”, which was what triggered the Leave Referendum, so “We should stay in the EU and change it from the inside” back then as justification to Remain rather than Leave sure sounded a lot like suggesting that the objective of priviledged treatment for Britons over the rest should be better pursued inside the EU.
It certainly didn’t came across as an appeal to it being better to carry on cooperating for the common good that to leave, which would be the kind of thing more likely to sway, say the Dutch or the Portuguese.
I suspect you might be confusing a local cultural artifact you see all around you in British Modern Culture with a general way of behaving in Europe: everybody is selfish to some point, but from the countries in Europe I lived in, Britain was the one were selfishness and adversarial approaches (you have to win, otherwise that mean you lose) were the most common and accepted. IMHO, Britain is in this in the middle between Continental Europe and the US.
I genuinely can’t understand it, like I can’t even come up with a single plausible way these people could think this way. How could you live in France, in the EU, intend to continue to live there because you obviously like it, and think that your home country needs to do something different?
As somebody else pointed out above; “British exceptionalism”.
I was living in Britain at the time of the Leave vote and the vast majority of the Leave “arguments” were anchored in some way or other on the idea that Britons and Britain would get special treatment because of being who they are (remember the whole “German car manufacturers will make sure we have a good deal to keep access to the UK market” argument?).
Also I’m from a very touristic country and it’s pretty easy to notice the feeling of superiority of lots of Britons when they come here, especially old people.
(The funny bit its that I ended up in England after years in The Netherlands, so ended up with Northern European standards and hence was less than impressed by Britain by the time I got there in 2006)
Anyways, all this to say that it’s absolutelly believable that lots, maybe even most, of those older people who lived abroad after retiring (so never really integrated in the local society, as people actually working there would) did genuinelly believe the idea that Britons would get special treatment. I mean, here in Portugal they’re not especially well integrated but especially the stories from the Costas in Spain is of pretty much self-contained Little-England communities, english-speaking and with their own stores and everything, all filled with British retirees most of whom never go into the trouble of learning even the most basic Spanish.
PS: Just to add that some Remainer arguments were also of the British Exceptionalist kind. Specifically the whole idea of “We should stay in the EU and change it from the inside” also reeks of “we know best” and “the EU will change to accomodate us”.
That’s fair, thanks for your well thought out comment. I imagine most Europeans knowing your language can create a feeling of superiority.
The brexit arguments were pretty broad as well in terms of what the EU would do for us, so I suppose there may have been a pipe dream of maintaining the right to travel and remain. Ugh I don’t think I will ever not be angry about the outcome.
I always felt it was more of a “big country which was once an empire” problem.
Even my tiny Portugal has some level of “celebrating the greatness of the country” on account of what was done by people there 5 centuries ago (i.e. during the time of the Discoveries) and Britain’s “Glory Days” are closer in time, were even bigger and, maybe more importantly, unlike in my country were that kind of stuff is out of fashion because the Fascists were heavy users of it, there are frequent celebrations of past glories some way or another in British media and there is often a nationalistic slant in the reporting of international news (mainly of Britain being portrayed as more important and listenned to abroad than it actually is if you look at the coverage of the same news in other countries).
It’s understandable when you’ve spent your life seeing international news being reported always with a slant that makes Britain seem important (which it isn’t anymore than other similar-sized countries, and often looks kinda desperatelly trying to ride in the coat-tails of America, the real important ones) and were the Imperial past is constantly remembered (nowadays, mainly with films and TV series), one ends up believing “we’re special” and that was easilly weaponized by the Leave campaign and is still weaponized by the Tories.
Most Brexiter arguments wouldn’t at all be believable for those with a realistic and informed view about Britain’s position in the World, the view of Britain abroad and the balance of power between the rest of the EU and the UK.
To be fair, while it comes across as snotty arrogance, the idea of negotiating with the other member states to steer the Union in your favour is a power and responsibility of every member state.
The British relationship with the rest of the EU was, at least by the time I moved to Britain (so, 2006), adversarial (win-loose) rather than cooperative (win-win), the latter being more common in the rest of Europe, especially smaller nations.
Also keep in mind that this was following Cammeron’s demands for Britain to be allowed to limit Free Movement from the rest of the EU into Britain but not the other way around (i.e. Britons still kept that right, just stopped reciprocating it) “or else we’ll have a Referendum on leaving the EU”, which was what triggered the Leave Referendum, so “We should stay in the EU and change it from the inside” back then as justification to Remain rather than Leave sure sounded a lot like suggesting that the objective of priviledged treatment for Britons over the rest should be better pursued inside the EU.
It certainly didn’t came across as an appeal to it being better to carry on cooperating for the common good that to leave, which would be the kind of thing more likely to sway, say the Dutch or the Portuguese.
I suspect you might be confusing a local cultural artifact you see all around you in British Modern Culture with a general way of behaving in Europe: everybody is selfish to some point, but from the countries in Europe I lived in, Britain was the one were selfishness and adversarial approaches (you have to win, otherwise that mean you lose) were the most common and accepted. IMHO, Britain is in this in the middle between Continental Europe and the US.