Maps and documents recovered from the bodies of Hamas attackers reveal a coordinated plan to target children and take hostages inside an Israeli village near Gaza.
Did they really though, or is this just propaganda?
I wouldn’t trust anything “found” by Israeli intelligence. Having said that, according to article, these are plans for:
Hamas units to surround and infiltrate villages and target places where civilians, including children, gather.
Which is reasonably close to what happened. Given how direct and quick the strike was, it’s reasonable to assume that plans of that nature exist.
Then again, October 7th was a a Saturday and a holiday and Hamas attacked early in the morning. If they wanted to kidnap kids, it wouldn’t make sense to target schools.
TLDR: I dunno. Maybe.
Other officials in their leadership said they were confused about the timing.
The attack was also the 50th anniversary, to the day, of the Yom Kippur war.
People trusting the IDF in 2023 is something I’ll never understand.
Their kneejerk reaction has always been to claim theyre the victim and their actions are 100% justified.
So now, even when it might be true, there’s no way I’d ever trust their word on it.
They’re like real life “boy that cried wolf”.
It’s no coincidence the IDF trains US cops.
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More than 700 Palestinian children and more than 400 women have been killed in the last 8 days by Israel, this is far from self defence or proportional.
Edit: Israel has now inflicted over 2000 deaths and injured over 9000 others
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A state doesn’t have this right but when we talk about the right to self defence for individuals proportionality is very important. Most countries would not allow you to claim self defence from a mugging if you decapitated the attacker and sent the head to their family.
Also if you’re both siding a genocide you’re either misinformed or for some reason siding with fascism.
If you are calling for peace without removing the genocidal state then you are just calling for a continuation of the genocide.
Palestinians have a right to risist occupation under the Geneva convention. You don’t get to tell them how they should resist a truely horrific situation.
Israel is breaking international law by occupying and attacking Palestine. But most countries choose to look away and even directly support the genocidal state.
This is like saying both sides are bad between the SS and resistance fighters because resistance fighters also committed war crimes.
If you view WW2, Ukraine-Russia war, or SA apartheid as one sided then you are a hypocrite to not apply the same thinking here.
Palestinians have a right to risist occupation under the Geneva convention. You don’t get to tell them how they should resist a truely horrific situation.
Do the Geneva conventions say anything about raping teenage girls as a method of resistance? What do they say about burning babies as a method of resistance? What effect did you think Hamas was going for when they brought a couple hundred Israeli civilians back and didn’t offer or suggest any terms for their release? Would you tie a family together so you could kill them together, if you were in their situation?
See, because here, I thought that nobody anywhere had the right to target and torture civilians, and that there was no conceivable way that would lead to peace or any concessions that might actually help Palestinian people. Here, I thought that terrorists committing terrorism with the intent of provoking war might be a bad thing, I guess I’m just biased into thinking that burning civilians alive is maybe not the greatest idea.
All those claimes are unverified I’ll wait a couple of weeks before we get the actual truth from the Israeli state.
All evidence including eye witness accounts from Israeli survivors reported that resistance fighters treated them humanely.
All hostage deaths so far have been caused by Israeli bombing.
500 civilians were just blown up in a hospital yesterday by Israel, do you not think they deserve their human rights? Or do you not consider them civilians?
Do you even consider them to be human?
Israel’s collective punishment is objective a war crime by definition.
Only if you believe it’s collective punishment. I’ve argued that cutting off electricity and similar actions are not intended as punishment at all, it’s intended to reduce the rocket-making capabilities of Hamas and PIJ as they actively use every resource at their disposal to make and fire rockets.
Ah yes grid electricity that is totally necessary for production of explosives and turning off doesn’t disproportionately affect all the people in hospitals that require it to live.
It absolutely is collective punishment no matter the intent. The general public suffer.
Way to act like a propogada mouthpiece for a genocidal state.
Israel supplied about half of Gaza’s electricity. They do not need more than the other half to run a hospital and a desalination plant. Hamas has been stealing all the fuel it can to create rockets and support other offensive capabilities. They aren’t struggling to produce enough electricity because they don’t have the ability to produce enough electricity, they’re struggling because Hamas is literally taking it from them.
From Wikipedia, their power comes from:
- Gaza’s sole power plant which has a nominal rating of 60–140 MW (figures vary due to degree of operation and damage to the plant) which is reliant on diesel fuel imported via Israel,[33][34]
- 125 MW supplied by Israel Electric Corporation (IEC) via 10 power lines, and
- 27 MW supplied by Egypt.[35][36]
- plus various generators and things throughout Gaza.
Power plant use fossil fuels, but Hamas has been stealing the fuel they have reserved, so yes, the power plant is operating below capacity. If they wanted to run the hospital or the desalination plant as badly as they wanted to fire rockets vaguely in the direction of Israel, they would.
Way to act like a total dumbass who hasn’t spent more than five minutes researching the situation and refuses to learn.
except the actual wolf is just across the border, launching rockets into civilian areas.
You do know that Israel has been doing this exact thing to Palestine for decades right?
I’m sorry I it is bs saying Israel isn’t the aggressor. Which side has more civilian casualties again in this decades long conflict?
At this point anything Israel “finds” just seems to justify the genocide that really seems to be happening.
No they absolutely keep their top secret plans printed on hundreds of fliers detailing the atrocities they plan to commit, just in case they’re captured so the whole world learns their “secret” plans that they printed at Kinkos and becomes even more enraged and hits their civilians harder. It’s definitively how real war is done in real life, but I mean obviously by mindless monsters not worthy of the land they’ve continually been forced out of because they’re rabid babykilling Islamic animals hellbent on an antisemitic hell crusade and this map of elementary schools we found totally proves it!
(Yeah, it’s probably propaganda. Israel is about to/is doing genocide in the spotlight and they need justification)
I dunno.
News has this … Hamas practised in plain sight, posting video of mock attack weeks before border breach.
they are not ashamed of being terrorists or targeting civilians or teaching schoolchildren to do so. They’re quite proud that they’ve been targeting civilians until they have an English-language interviewer asking them questions on air.
Anybody defending them is a patsy, at best.
Unlike Hamas who is always honest
All people here defending Palestine, and denouncing Israel, but never denouncing Hamas. They implicitly are terrorist apologists. No wonder, since a lot of people here seem to be staunch leftists
They keep saying Hamas doesn’t represent Palestine but whenever you say that the world needs to end Hamas, they automatically think you’re talking about all Palestinians and get offended, so apparently even they are confused. Too many people defending Hamas as if they are Palestine
Por que no los dos? Nothing can justify an excessive response. Murdering children on purpose can’t justify more children being murdered.
If both parties are both acting in good faith, but Israel has been doing nothing but making excuses for its wholesale genocide. Their actions make their credibility suspect.
what the fuck are you talking about? You’re fucking saying Hamas was acting in good faith?
My God, this place.
Nice try putting words in my mouth.
I was trying very hard to understand what the fuck you were talking about, which is why I asked.
if you read your own comment again, you might just notice the sheer lack of grammatical sense.
If you want people to understand your point, try again.
If you were genuinely asking then apologies for the misunderstanding. Yet the question is one of those “you are prolife? You support killing babies?” type situations.
I never mentioned Hamas or said they also are acting in good faith, as that isnt the topic called into question.
Hamas acting in good faith has nothing to do with this. They aren’t the one making claims.
Israel is the one making the claims here, and the question is if they are making the claim in good faith or trying to justify their genocidal campaign against Palestine.
It smells like propaganda and Israel has been doing nothing but fishing for an excuse to justify their “retaliation” efforts, especially with the backlash from other countries.
If you were genuinely asking then apologies for the misunderstanding. Yet the question is one of those “you are prolife? You support killing babies?” type situations.
I never mentioned Hamas or said they also are acting in good faith, as that isnt the topic called into question.
Hamas acting in good faith has nothing to do with this. They aren’t the one making claims.
Israel is the one making the claims here, and the question is if they are making the claim in good faith or trying to justify their genocidal campaign against Palestine.
It smells like propaganda and Israel has been doing nothing but fishing for an excuse to justify their retaliation, especially with the backlash from other countries.
I never mentioned Hamas or said they also are acting in good faith, as that isnt the topic called into question.
Who are the “both parties” here? You said something about “both parties,” do you remember that?
Israel is the one making the claims here, and the question is if they are making the claim in good faith or trying to justify their genocidal campaign against Palestine.
I think that’ll be clear enough once the campaign is over and you barely see a blip in the population of Gaza, and they’re really not too concerned with justifying anything on the world stage—the UN seems to be censuring them every damn day already.
Also: I don’t think you really need an excuse to go rescue 150+ hostages when the hostage-takers don’t have terms to give them back, I think it’s very clear that Hamas is desperate for the invasion to happen. I’m the furthest thing from a war hawk, but I can’t understand what people want to happen here, you want Netanyahu to fly to Qatar and beg this guy to give back the hostages? Offer for all 9.5 million Israelis to leave in the next week? There’s no way Hamas is giving up those hostages, no way they’re going to stop trying to kill every Jew on the planet. They’re acting in good faith on their stated goals.
What more justification do you think Israel actually needs to invade Gaza?
It can be both. When your goal is hostages, it makes sense to take the most vulnerable. Children are easier to take and aren’t likely to fight back.
Edit: Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Fuck Hamas and all the leftists terrorist apologists
It’s fascinating that you felt the need to edit your comment because just addressing the facts in the present case wasn’t enough. Even though the facts might be true and despicable, you still need to make it clear what side you’re on, you can’t just say what you think is true.
He didn’t say free hamas. Hama’s isn’t Palestine. Hamas hasn’t held an election for almost as long as the average Palestinian has been alive. Longer than they’ve been able to vote. Personally I’d like to see Palestine free of Israel and Israel’s creation hamas.
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The problem is Palestine as a whole doesn’t realistically support hamas. Saying that they do would imply that if they were given two equally viable choices they would choose hamas. The average age of a Palestinian is 18 to 19 years old. The last time Hamas held elections was 2005 2006. Most Palestinians have never actually had a choice. Hamas and their leadership is largely what they’ve been saddled with.
If Israel stopped bulldozing Palestinian homes, and stealing land. Opened up Gaza so it wasn’t just an open air prison anymore. And actually provided a constructive path forward to actually benefit Palestinians. You might actually see a number of them defending an even supporting their benefactors.
Would there still be terrorist attacks and innocent people losing their lives? All you have to do is look at the United States to know the answer to that. But their lives on the whole would be better and happier. It still wouldn’t be easy or overnight. But it’s the only real solution
I didn’t say Hamas was Palestine, I didn’t say he said Free Hamas, I didn’t say anything about his point except the way he felt the need to inject it on the end of an otherwise complete and practically unrelated point.
Yeah but that’s enough for all the leftists terrorist apologizers to come from the woodwork
Yep. Know what else is fascinating. **Free Palestine 🇵🇸 **
Fuck Hamas and all the leftists terrorist apologists
Remember when Hezbollah kicked Israel’s @ss?
I call bullshit. Carrying around “top secret” plans conveniently printed out, and the medics happen to find them in perfect condition in the middle of a warzone.
The article literally says that the plans match the tactics and movements seen/recorded in the raid of this kibbutz and others. Dumb for them to bring the documents with? Yes. Still the exact way it happened? Also yes.
Dude, someone could just write the plans after the attack happened so they matched what happened…
Proof?
Oh sure just let me call up my buddies in the IDF and Mossad, give me a minute /s
You know it’s fairly predictable that some would be in denial.
Things happen, and the possibility that someone would take battle plans into battle is pretty high considering the stupidity of most people.
Following your reasoning, it is also very likely this is just Israeli propaganda.
My reasoning doesn’t point to that at all.
I have a feeling you don’t have much reasoning at all.
ooh, sick burn, “a person who doesn’t like Hamas couldn’t possibly be thinking!” yeah, you showed them.
Can you dislike both Hamas and Israel? That is the question. Can you agree that both are committing war crimes?
Crickets….
Nobody likes Hamas, so whatever point you’re trying to make here is moot.
There is literally no denouncing coming from the left against Hamas. That makes you complicit with the terrorists
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They actually think murdering people proves your point and will Garner you international support.
Oh wait, leftists already support the terrorists
People are upvoting the denials and distractions here very aggressively, people are jumping at any opportunity to defend Hamas.
It’s that and people tend to go into denial when hearing of some horrendous event. “It isnt true. It couldn’t be”. Then they make up a story to deny, which is always a conspiracy of some sort.
And without proof nonetheless
Irrelevant. Let’s assume that Hamas did indeed target schools, hospitals, etc. That’s awful, but it doesn’t justify what Israel is and has been doing to the Palestinian people. Two wrongs don’t make a right, it just makes more wrong.
Why can’t we agree someone did something horrible without bringing whataboitisms into it?
whataboitism is when you refer to a completely unrelated issue.
Example:
“Why did you hit him?”
“Well, Johnny over there hit his brother two years ago!” - unrelated, whataboitism.
“He stabbed me, stole my wallet, and tried to run away” - a normal explanation, even though it is too refers to an action of a different person.
With this easy guide you too will be able to understand complex topics in no time“Why did you hit him? I caught you red handed!”
“I didn’t hit him.”
“Your phone literally says ‘2:00: hit Bob in the face.’”
“Alright, alright, let’s just pretend I hit him. But that doesn’t justify what his cousin said about me last week!”
There was an attack on civilians, it targeted children, it killed children, the people who did it are pretending they didn’t, the user here is also pretending the attrocities didn’t happen, and even they it did, “he started it so nyah.”
Aside from all of the things that detracts from the conversation, is there something it adds?
Nobody is saying what Hamas did was acceptable, but a lot of people like you will say any stupid bullshit to distract people from talking about ongoing war crimes being committed by our allies.
I have seen people on Lemmygrad celebrating what Hamas did and talking about how they hoped the hostages get tortured. It is not accurate to claim nobody is saying what Hamas did was acceptable.
Mia Khalifa is certainly celebrating it.
So is BLM Chicago, and the greater movement doesn’t seem to object.
Brooklyn College students held a vigil for the dead; others went to protest the vigil, screaming the whole time that it was “justified.”
Londoners vandalized a Jewish neighborhood. Australians are chanting “gas the Jews.” New Yorkers at the “pro-Palestinian” marches gleefully waved swastikas.
A group of something like 30 Harvard clubs issued a statement saying Israel was entirely at fault for the attack, didn’t mention Hamas at all.
Most of this happened before any reprisals. They’re not complaining about reprisals, they’re glorifying the violence.
Lots of people are saying it was acceptable, lots of people are celebrating it, and they’re not all too subtle about why.
Someone said Hamas did a bad thing, so your first response was “oh yeah, well Israel…” Which tells me you do in fact support Hamas and what they did
It must be comforting to have a simple worldview.
You must know since you support terrorists just because your ideology demands it
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Nobody suggested anything justified anything, and nobody wants you to make an assumption. Here’s hard evidence of the thing you don’t believe, and you’re trying to distract from it with an unrelated point.
IDF lies all the time. This could be real. But you’d be a fool to just believe them.
So you’re living in the reality where you assume everything the IDF says is false until and including when Hamas releases video confirming it. Hamas shows video of how it victimized civilians, but makes a statement saying it didn’t, and your approach to epistemology is still “well, the IDF said it was true, so it’s probably false, I’ll wait until I’ve seen more conclusive evidence.”
Kbin is exhausting. Fuck, I might have to go back to reddit…
I simply don’t take the word of any major government/ intelligence agency at face value. Here in reality we just call it reality. Because there’s not more than one reality.
There’s been no reliable corroboration of all these claims. In fact there’s been a good number of them debunked. Remember that. And stop letting yourself get wound up by propaganda. You will be fine. Having been where you are right now though. I would say take a break from things for the night or for a day. These things when you’re emotional have a way of starting a toxic spiral. It’s never good and the only way to escape it is to step away.
Quick edit to add I went back and refresh and read up on some more of the thread. Yeah you need to take some time and focus on yourself man. Mia Khalifa wasn’t celebrating it. I actually read what she said. it’s a shame what happened/ is happening to her. But what she said was fairly benign. But you aren’t dealing with all the information here. And that’s never a good place to be emotionally.
The IDF isn’t putting out photos that are going to cause terror. Wow, big shocker.
Many of the Israeli claims are, conveniently, corroborated by videos Hamas posted, but they still love to turn around and say none of it ever happened.
Israeli civilians crying for the return of their loved ones are not propagandists.
If you don’t believe anything anybody says, talking about it seems kind of pointless.
Mia Khalifa wasn’t celebrating it. I actually read what she said
Man keep reading, she was giddy.
Why should they. When they have people like yourself ready to go on adnauseam without proof.
No one here is saying the attack wasn’t deplorable. And that what Hamas did what was right or justified. You’re still misrepresenting Khalifa too. I don’t agree with what she said. But the fact remains the very first thing you said basically gave away the game. You really have no confirmation of anything you’re claiming for the most part, and are running on Raw emotion. Reply if you want. I probably won’t read it. I’m sure you’re getting enough hate and aggression spewed back your way in return at all the hate and aggression your spewing. This is a very tragic situation.
Honestly if there were some way, I would like to see all of Hamas and netanyahu’s goons rounded up. Preferably locked down somewhere together. Maybe someone could go back in a week to see who’s left. And take care of that. But at least the public would be safe. Israel has terrorized Palestinians disproportionately for decades. Violence doesn’t really justify violence however. It only continues it. Israel is the one with the power to bring about change. But this is what they do. Lie commit war crimes and basically genocide. Yeah Hamas is in great either. The hardcore want to see Israel wiped from the map. But they aren’t Palestine. Plenty of Palestinians just want to be able to live a life and not have to be constantly afraid of Israeli brutality. Israelis just want to live their life too. But their government keeps them too terrified to think rationally. And they keep putting the problem in power. Exacerbating the situations that lead to the terror that’s been getting them killed. It’s Israel’s problem to solve. Hopefully with some of the recent polling going against Netanyahu. Perhaps they’re ready to start ousting some of these far right radicals that have been heavily pushing this situation.
Israel is committing war crimes and your head is lodged firmly in your buttocks.
Fuck Hamas and all the leftists terrorist apologists
I’m sorry, until your country is willing to apologize for killing innocent civilians from my country for no other reason than revenge, you can go stick your dick in a pumpkin 🎃
I’m sorry but being a whiny little bitch doesn’t allow anyone to commit genocide.
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I have a used pumpkin for you as well. Don’t worry, it’s just been used by your friend.
Be careful before you give everyone who supports the Israeli people the middle finger
The documents were found on the bodies of Hamas terrorists by Israeli first responders and shared with NBC News.
Those documents - one, two - are remarkably unspoiled for what they supposedly went through: printed and distributed by a leader, handed over to the terrorists, reviewed (probably multiple times), stuck in a backpack or pocket, brought into an Israeli area, maybe referred to while there, in at least one firefight / battle, recovered from the bodies, passed around by Israeli first responders, then handed over to NBC.
All that, and not a speck of dirt or drop of blood? And the terrorists must have handled them very gently, because aside from one bent-over corner, there isn’t a single crease to be seen - not even the corner where the plans were stapled together has been flattened, just gently held open. Remarkably pristine, those Hamas terrorists, even during infiltration, battle, and death.
Hey, wait a minute… What are you trying to say?? Are you questioning the authenticity of this discovery??
I’m complimenting them and their mothers on how well they were raised, to take such good care of their possessions. Even while they’re running, fighting, and dying, they really managed to keep those documents in tip-top shape - that takes real dedication, and shows their mothers raised them properly.
Hamas never wanted to be a “government”, instead they dreamed of being a cabal of museum-grade archivists.
Also obviously everyone takes TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS to the front lines.
As we all know, bathrooms are the correct place for your top secret government documents
yeah nobody gives a shit about keeping secrets secret, you must be new to… reality. of course they’re going to bring a map with them—if anybody tried telling them not to, they’re dumbasses.
You wouldn’t be a dumbass for telling them not to carry the pages that instruct them to cause causalities, or to take hostages, or to commit any crimes, or ones that tell them how many vehicles they have and their types, etc.
If the Israelis were faking these documents, why didn’t they add some dust and creases?
These look just like a printout I kept in my side pocket all day.
In your everyday activities, are you running, crouching, pressing yourself against the side of a building, maybe lying down? Are you routinely flinging yourself out of the line of fire? It’s 80°F in Israel today, they’ve been running and fighting, probably had to look at the map once or twice and yet there’s no sign of sweaty fingers that have handled the documents? I’m sure they stopped in the middle of their infiltration, too, to wash their hands.
This might’ve been a guy who got shot shortly after sneaking across the border in the wee hours of the morning. There’s no reason to assume this is one of the attackers who spend the day fighting the IDF.
They should’ve just brought hand sanitizer!
Those damn golfofrinchans
You seem to be implying you think this is faked because it doesn’t comply with how you expect the documents to look. It took you less than a couple hours since this was posted to think this conspiracy theory up. If these documents were faked, don’t you think the Israeli intelligence community would also have considered the same issues you raised and properly dirtied them to make sure they had the necessary dirt and blood to meet your specific definition of ‘authentic’? The ultimate implication here is that you think you have thunk up a gotcha in a few hours that Israeli Intelligence were incapable of thinking up. That’s very arrogant.
Man. This is awful.
Don’t forget about ukraine, though. Russians are literally stealing kids, and have legit torture chambers for civilians.
Dons tinfoil hat The whole Hamas attack makes me think that it is a ploy to take focus off the Ukrainian war, given the backing by Iran, a close ally of Russia. It also serves mutlipe objectives of the perpetrating countries
Dons tinfoil hat
Along as we have that on…
… I’ve been reading all about all this detailed intelligence that Hamas had on the inner workings of the Israeli military around Gaza. Like, they knew exactly which unmarked installations were military. And they knew that if they took out the cell towers, it would cripple their communication at the border…
… which is the kind of key operational information that Israel would only share with its very close, key allies…
… the closest and key-est of which was run by someone who is under indictment for mishandling classified intel, and quite possibly selling some of it…
There’s no way Donald Trump willingly sold Israel’s secrets to Hamas – I don’t think he’s even that dumb – but it is plausible that he sold them to the Russians, and then they mysteriously “leaked” to Hamas, somehow. Or maybe he sold them to the Saudis, who don’t really like Hamas but maybe there is a Hamas sympathizer there who took the documents.
And an even worse thought is that he didn’t sell them at all, but willingly gave them to Putin out of friendship, or showed them to some random at Mar-A-Lago who happened to be a Hamas spy with cameras in his eyeglasses.
It reads like bad fan fiction, but so much of modern US politics does these days.
still in tinfoil hat mode…
but it is plausible that he sold them to the Russians
More that he bragged about the info to somebody in Russia who was helping him out with his campaign, and that somebody went to Putin saying “you’ll never believe what that idiot showed me.” And then Russia thought “hey, that’ll distract from all the other shit we do!” Ukraine included, but that’s really not the end of it.
For what it’s worth, they’ve been planning the attack for a long time. And Iran was also a big supporter.
It has been suggested that Trump showed off Iron Dome info to Russian nationals. Not much evidence of that, but it would explain a lot.
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Here’s an example of the top secret document: https://i.imgur.com/PpALNhj.jpg
This wasn’t created in 10 minutes. How did Israel not know of the attack beforehand?
Why do you think that took longer than 5 minutes to type?
And why aren’t you questioning why a pristine freshly printed copy was discovered on the bodies of dead fighter?
You don’t think there’d be a single dirt mark or blood stain?
It’s suspicious, but not even remotely proof of falsity or grounds for dismissing it outright. That’s just sloppy motivated thinking on your part.
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it doesn’t look “pristine” or “fresh” to me. I don’t know why it would be surprising that there aren’t dirt or blood stains in them. Most pockets don’t get dirt and blood stains all over them in war, some just stay closed. If a soldier has 20 pockets and a bullet goes through one of them, that’s usually it, the other 19 are usually safe. Not to mention packs.
The map looks folded up and kinda wrinkled. That makes more than enough sense for a map than “oh yeah, make sure you smear blood and dirt all over it to prove it was taken off a body!”
there’s nothing remotely suspicious about this, you people are just desperate to believe what a known terrorist organization tells you.
Oh wow, what a coincidence finding such great quality paper with no tears, no blood, nothing just casually on top of a dead Hamas fighter and a TOP SECRET one as well!
Sadly with the all these unverified claims by Israel these past few days, I’m not sure if this is any different.https://lemmy.world/post/6782180
Repost? Edit: no, my bad
I am not subscribed to that community, I’m based on kbin, I saw this elsewhere.
Oh, fair enough. I conflated “News” and “World News” to be the same community.
That is not too surprising knowing Hamas.
it seems to have surprised a lot of people here into enough cognitive dissonance to say it’s impossible.
