At the same time, extending that hand is what will help. If a person is able to go “omg NOW I get it” and then the door is shut in their face, that will foster even more resentment.
Some people wont change, but those that are willing should be accepted.
Jokes aside, how can we trust people that have already displayed such selfishness? How can we trust they won’t continue to work against the group interest the second their goal is no longer aligned with ours?
Maybe we need to start treating lack of empathy like more of an intellectual / educational problem, rather than a moral failing in like your “soul”? If only just so we can forgive people enough to actually work with them.
I’m spitballin, but I can work with ignorance or even feeblemindedness - you just focus on education or harm reduction. Like maybe they’ll never never be able to see outgroups as fully human, but with the right kind of external validations and incentives, maybe they could simulate it.
I don’t know. My sister is a psychopath. She cannot understand the feelings of the other people around her, no matter how clearly or explicitly or adamantly they are explained to her.
We have a lot of psychopaths out there running the government and in positions of power and in positions of authority and serving as megaphones for their interests.
No amount of explaining empathy or extending hands or teaching will ever get through to these people.
They are fundamentally broken in a way that cannot be fixed.
That’s what I was trying to get at with my talk of incentives and external validation - Stop trying to “fix” them and accept that they lack the capacities that we take for granted.
I’m through with caring about what’s in someone’s heart of hearts. Can we get them to behave, even if it’s out of fear of being ostracised? Fine. Good enough.
Then work on the conditions that make people maladaptive (or really just adaptive to a mal world) separately.
that’s basically the approach that all of popular culture had been taking since like 2008. like that was the attitude of the last 20 years. show these bigots that if they at least pretend to play nice we can all get along and be more prosperous for it.
they hated it. it’s the “woke mind virus” to them now. I genuinely don’t believe people like this will ever be ok in a kind and accepting world. I also don’t think that trying to get rid of them will solve this problem… i don’t know if there is a solution to some people being mentally incapable of empathy, but it certainly doesn’t help that it’s so baked into our culture now.
capitalism is highly compatible with a lack of empathy. it’s a system that inherently promotes those with no scruples. the less you feel bad about being a piece of shit for money, the more money you’ll be able to make. it’s a predatory system where those most willing and able to cannibalize everyone and everything around them for personal gain will gain the most. those that gain the most are then also in a position to manipulate both political votes and public opinion. they blatantly bribe our politicians and they own our media platforms. this is especially problematic on social media. if you were a young American on tiktok in the last u.s. election you probably saw numerous vague tiktoks about kamala starting WWIII. no quotes, no context, just “me and the boys after kamala starts wwiii” type shit. as I understand it nearly every major election around the world since then has seen tiktok flooded with “memes” like that supporting the right wing candidate. we’re certainly not going to make any progress on this issue while that’s the world we live in.
maybe a stable enough government with keen enough regulations can at least try to keep these people from completely raiding the hen house. we’ll have to see how things play out with Germany and the afd ban, but I’m not too hopeful on that playing out well in our current situation.
IDK, I’m half convinced that humanity is eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes. with long periods of everything sucking because too few have or want too great a percentage of what humanity has claimed their own and the occasional period where things are accidentally not that bad.
we are currently leaving one of those brief periods of “not that bad”
There is an intellectual burden to behaving against your nature/wishes. It’s reasonable to expect them to not want to do that. We just need to show them the cost is more than just external, which certainly isn’t happening at an institutional level in the States right now. You’d think reminding someone who’s voting to kick out illegal immigrants that that group included members of their own family wouldn’t be harder than Homer remembering that Lisa needs braces, though.
This fully grown legal adult didn’t have self awareness 8 months ago, I doubt they’re going to suddenly develop it. If you are nice or sympathetic to them, you just reinforce their beliefs that they are the victim and everyone should care about them the most.
I’m sympathetic to her father. She can kick rocks. I have no sympathy for her.
The right wing is using propaganda tactics that are known to brainwash and dupe many people, and you’re not going to treat those who got brainwashed and duped like victims too? Yes, they’re adults, and that means that they have to take responsibility for their vote. Once they do, admit they were conned, and express willingness to join the fight, it’s important we accept them with open arms so they know our side is better than the other side.
As long as they’re doubling down on fascism? Hard agree, they can kick rocks. Once they see what’s really going on and are willing to fight it? Welcome to the team, sorry about what happened to your dad, let’s see if we can get him back.
Every person like this is an opportunity to gain an ally. It’s an opportunity to find out if this person was conned or is selfish. We lose that opportunity if we mock them instead of offering a hand in solidarity.
The right wing is using propaganda tactics that are known to brainwash and dupe many people…
No one is forcing people to consume that content. It’s weak propaganda at best, easily seen through, and there is no shortage of well-sourced refutations of their lies. Have you tried talking to any trump supporters? When given direct evidence that they are wrong, and have been mislead by right wing media, they simply double down.
… you’re not going to treat those who got brainwashed and duped like victims too.
Absolutely not. They are not children who are sharing the opinions of their parents, they are full-grown voting adults in a society where all of human knowledge is available in their fucking pockets. I can understand making the trump mistake once in 2016, but at this point, he has a proven track record of racist, authoritarian and incompetent management of the country.
In the absense of four prior years and quite specific intentions stated clearly of enacting these very policies I’d agree with you. The only revelation here is them finding the scorpion would sting them like they said they would. I’ve no compassion left for those that gleefully voted for this cruelty and were deliberately ignorant that they too were targets.
We needed that 8 months ago when you knowingly voted against it.
Now YOU want it.
Enjoy those tears, you earned them.
At the same time, extending that hand is what will help. If a person is able to go “omg NOW I get it” and then the door is shut in their face, that will foster even more resentment.
Some people wont change, but those that are willing should be accepted.
Ugh but they suck so bad…
Jokes aside, how can we trust people that have already displayed such selfishness? How can we trust they won’t continue to work against the group interest the second their goal is no longer aligned with ours?
Maybe we need to start treating lack of empathy like more of an intellectual / educational problem, rather than a moral failing in like your “soul”? If only just so we can forgive people enough to actually work with them.
I’m spitballin, but I can work with ignorance or even feeblemindedness - you just focus on education or harm reduction. Like maybe they’ll never never be able to see outgroups as fully human, but with the right kind of external validations and incentives, maybe they could simulate it.
I don’t know. My sister is a psychopath. She cannot understand the feelings of the other people around her, no matter how clearly or explicitly or adamantly they are explained to her.
We have a lot of psychopaths out there running the government and in positions of power and in positions of authority and serving as megaphones for their interests.
No amount of explaining empathy or extending hands or teaching will ever get through to these people.
They are fundamentally broken in a way that cannot be fixed.
That’s what I was trying to get at with my talk of incentives and external validation - Stop trying to “fix” them and accept that they lack the capacities that we take for granted.
I’m through with caring about what’s in someone’s heart of hearts. Can we get them to behave, even if it’s out of fear of being ostracised? Fine. Good enough.
Then work on the conditions that make people maladaptive (or really just adaptive to a mal world) separately.
It does really seem like a societal issue. We incentivize this behavior, so it shouldn’t be surprising when people display it.
that’s basically the approach that all of popular culture had been taking since like 2008. like that was the attitude of the last 20 years. show these bigots that if they at least pretend to play nice we can all get along and be more prosperous for it.
they hated it. it’s the “woke mind virus” to them now. I genuinely don’t believe people like this will ever be ok in a kind and accepting world. I also don’t think that trying to get rid of them will solve this problem… i don’t know if there is a solution to some people being mentally incapable of empathy, but it certainly doesn’t help that it’s so baked into our culture now.
capitalism is highly compatible with a lack of empathy. it’s a system that inherently promotes those with no scruples. the less you feel bad about being a piece of shit for money, the more money you’ll be able to make. it’s a predatory system where those most willing and able to cannibalize everyone and everything around them for personal gain will gain the most. those that gain the most are then also in a position to manipulate both political votes and public opinion. they blatantly bribe our politicians and they own our media platforms. this is especially problematic on social media. if you were a young American on tiktok in the last u.s. election you probably saw numerous vague tiktoks about kamala starting WWIII. no quotes, no context, just “me and the boys after kamala starts wwiii” type shit. as I understand it nearly every major election around the world since then has seen tiktok flooded with “memes” like that supporting the right wing candidate. we’re certainly not going to make any progress on this issue while that’s the world we live in.
maybe a stable enough government with keen enough regulations can at least try to keep these people from completely raiding the hen house. we’ll have to see how things play out with Germany and the afd ban, but I’m not too hopeful on that playing out well in our current situation.
IDK, I’m half convinced that humanity is eternally doomed to repeat the same mistakes. with long periods of everything sucking because too few have or want too great a percentage of what humanity has claimed their own and the occasional period where things are accidentally not that bad.
we are currently leaving one of those brief periods of “not that bad”
There is an intellectual burden to behaving against your nature/wishes. It’s reasonable to expect them to not want to do that. We just need to show them the cost is more than just external, which certainly isn’t happening at an institutional level in the States right now. You’d think reminding someone who’s voting to kick out illegal immigrants that that group included members of their own family wouldn’t be harder than Homer remembering that Lisa needs braces, though.
We don’t need to. Anyone on our side even temporarily is useful.
FDR, Churchill, and Stalin made it work…
This fully grown legal adult didn’t have self awareness 8 months ago, I doubt they’re going to suddenly develop it. If you are nice or sympathetic to them, you just reinforce their beliefs that they are the victim and everyone should care about them the most.
I’m sympathetic to her father. She can kick rocks. I have no sympathy for her.
The right wing is using propaganda tactics that are known to brainwash and dupe many people, and you’re not going to treat those who got brainwashed and duped like victims too? Yes, they’re adults, and that means that they have to take responsibility for their vote. Once they do, admit they were conned, and express willingness to join the fight, it’s important we accept them with open arms so they know our side is better than the other side.
As long as they’re doubling down on fascism? Hard agree, they can kick rocks. Once they see what’s really going on and are willing to fight it? Welcome to the team, sorry about what happened to your dad, let’s see if we can get him back.
Every person like this is an opportunity to gain an ally. It’s an opportunity to find out if this person was conned or is selfish. We lose that opportunity if we mock them instead of offering a hand in solidarity.
No one is forcing people to consume that content. It’s weak propaganda at best, easily seen through, and there is no shortage of well-sourced refutations of their lies. Have you tried talking to any trump supporters? When given direct evidence that they are wrong, and have been mislead by right wing media, they simply double down.
Absolutely not. They are not children who are sharing the opinions of their parents, they are full-grown voting adults in a society where all of human knowledge is available in their fucking pockets. I can understand making the trump mistake once in 2016, but at this point, he has a proven track record of racist, authoritarian and incompetent management of the country.
In the absense of four prior years and quite specific intentions stated clearly of enacting these very policies I’d agree with you. The only revelation here is them finding the scorpion would sting them like they said they would. I’ve no compassion left for those that gleefully voted for this cruelty and were deliberately ignorant that they too were targets.
This one doesn’t get it, though.