I hate to break it to you about how many children are forced to do things like youth football and youth ballet…
Children can give informed consent? We’ve agreed pretty unilaterally as a society that that is fundamentally untrue. Especially at the ages where children are taken to ballet classes.
Children can give informed consent? We’ve agreed pretty unilaterally as a society that that is fundamentally untrue.
In every context? About everything? No, we have not. Just because a child isn’t old enough to consent to sex doesn’t mean they can’t give consent to anything at all. Maybe in the US, the only country that has not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, where parental rights are so extreme and out of control that parents can hire people to abduct their child in the dead of night off to a Holes-esque labor camp, if not a “conversion therapy” brainwashing camp. But in more civilized countries, there’s more of a balance where children are gradually given more autonomy and rights appropriate to their age.
But even in the US, I’ll give an example. When I was in middle school, we were assigned to dissect frogs. I believed that the assignment was morally objectionable, and said that I would refuse to participate - I withdrew my consent. Most of the rest of the class did consent to the activity. My teachers accommodated me and a few other students by letting us do a computer simulation of it. But both my teachers and my parents wanted me to do it, the only objection came from me, expressing my own will and my own convictions.
In the US, there seems to be this neurosis that the parent-child relationship is something bordering on ownership, and there’s a corresponding fear of, “If I don’t own my child, then who does? The state?” This is why there is a preconception, especially among conservatives, that if a child comes out as any form LGBT+, they must have “gotten it from someone,” often, they assume, through abuse. In reality, teens are capable of making their own decisions regarding how to identify, as expressions of their own will - a teen can say “I’m not into girls” in the same way that I, when not even a teen, could say, “I’m not into dissecting frogs.”
Whether, and at what age, children can consent to things like ballet classes, Adderall, puberty blockers, and other forms of gender affirming care are valid questions to examine, they are not resolved by this oversimplified way of thinking that the ability to consent to anything flips on like a light switch at age 18. In the case of gender affirming care, not only have these questions been examined, and generally answered more in favor of the child’s autonomy, but they are also reexamined for each individual child on a case-by-case basis. Doctors are both careful about and (generally) supportive of gender affirming care.
The key you, (and many people in this thread, I can only reply to one person) are missing is the difference between consent and informed consent.
Children can consent to literally anything, and withdraw their consent at any time. In almost every case, you should respect the wishes of the child. Most of that consent or withdraw is harmless and helps the child establish boundaries and even learn about themselves.
A child is able to consent to participating in ballet classes, however, depending on the maturity of the child, they may not be able to grasp that they are doing irreparable damage to their feet; they might not know chronic illness, they usually don’t have a concept of just how long a human life is. So even if they are told directly, the “informed” part of informed consent needs a deeper understanding of actions and consequences than many children have.
With our current medical understanding (and it will probably be this way for a long long time) the line between being able to give informed consent and uninformed consent is blurred and is straight up different for different scenarios someone is in. We chose 18 in our society by basically picking a number out of a hat. It’s different in different societies and we know for a fact that it’s different person to person.
Consent when it comes to trans or questioning kids has been co-opted by the right so when you question how much someone should be allowed to go on HRT or get gender affirming surgery when they’re young, the knee-jerk assumption is that they’re completely anti-trans. If you look into the trans community there’s still a lot of healthy debate about what lines to draw. We have a lot of research on the effects of something like hormone blockers and it’s generally agreed that they are an effective treatment to young kids questioning their gender that only delays whatever puberty they choose until they can give their full informed consent (ideally after many hours of therapy). When people can give that informed consent is still up in the air.
This thread is about kids medically transitioning, by the time they’re undergoing puberty they’re teens or preteens. Not like six year olds who want to do ballet or whatever.
Wtf? The fact that you are comfortable conflating those two wildly different topics is concerning.
First of all, being put on hormone therapy isn’t a child deciding their own gender. It is pausing puberty until they are old enough to make an informed decision about their own health and identity.
Secondly, what does gender identity have to do with pedophillia? Gender affirming care is all about harm reduction, not sexualizing literal children…
No, that was me giving them the chance to clarify what they meant if their comment wasn’t them huffing about how preteens/teens can medically transition but not have sex with adults.
Anyway, as someone who is trans and used to be a kid, knowing your gender isn’t really anything like having sex.
If kids can give informed consent doesn’t the entire argument for not fucking kids cause they can’t consent go right out the window? I do not believe kids can give informed consent because they don’t have the capacity, context or knowledge to foresee the consequences of their actions
Personally as a nearly 40 year old I would be horrified by 12 year old me making irreversible life changes for current me
If kids can give informed consent doesn’t the entire argument for not fucking kids cause they can’t consent go right out the window?
What is with people being absolutely unable to reconcile ‘children should have some input over their own healthcare decisions, actually’ with ‘grown adults should not be able to sexually prey on children’?
Knowing your gender is so different to having sex that I’m having trouble believing anyone is bringing it up sincerely.
I hate to break it to you about how many children are forced to do things like youth football and youth ballet…
Children can give informed consent? We’ve agreed pretty unilaterally as a society that that is fundamentally untrue. Especially at the ages where children are taken to ballet classes.
In every context? About everything? No, we have not. Just because a child isn’t old enough to consent to sex doesn’t mean they can’t give consent to anything at all. Maybe in the US, the only country that has not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, where parental rights are so extreme and out of control that parents can hire people to abduct their child in the dead of night off to a Holes-esque labor camp, if not a “conversion therapy” brainwashing camp. But in more civilized countries, there’s more of a balance where children are gradually given more autonomy and rights appropriate to their age.
But even in the US, I’ll give an example. When I was in middle school, we were assigned to dissect frogs. I believed that the assignment was morally objectionable, and said that I would refuse to participate - I withdrew my consent. Most of the rest of the class did consent to the activity. My teachers accommodated me and a few other students by letting us do a computer simulation of it. But both my teachers and my parents wanted me to do it, the only objection came from me, expressing my own will and my own convictions.
In the US, there seems to be this neurosis that the parent-child relationship is something bordering on ownership, and there’s a corresponding fear of, “If I don’t own my child, then who does? The state?” This is why there is a preconception, especially among conservatives, that if a child comes out as any form LGBT+, they must have “gotten it from someone,” often, they assume, through abuse. In reality, teens are capable of making their own decisions regarding how to identify, as expressions of their own will - a teen can say “I’m not into girls” in the same way that I, when not even a teen, could say, “I’m not into dissecting frogs.”
Whether, and at what age, children can consent to things like ballet classes, Adderall, puberty blockers, and other forms of gender affirming care are valid questions to examine, they are not resolved by this oversimplified way of thinking that the ability to consent to anything flips on like a light switch at age 18. In the case of gender affirming care, not only have these questions been examined, and generally answered more in favor of the child’s autonomy, but they are also reexamined for each individual child on a case-by-case basis. Doctors are both careful about and (generally) supportive of gender affirming care.
The key you, (and many people in this thread, I can only reply to one person) are missing is the difference between consent and informed consent.
Children can consent to literally anything, and withdraw their consent at any time. In almost every case, you should respect the wishes of the child. Most of that consent or withdraw is harmless and helps the child establish boundaries and even learn about themselves.
A child is able to consent to participating in ballet classes, however, depending on the maturity of the child, they may not be able to grasp that they are doing irreparable damage to their feet; they might not know chronic illness, they usually don’t have a concept of just how long a human life is. So even if they are told directly, the “informed” part of informed consent needs a deeper understanding of actions and consequences than many children have.
With our current medical understanding (and it will probably be this way for a long long time) the line between being able to give informed consent and uninformed consent is blurred and is straight up different for different scenarios someone is in. We chose 18 in our society by basically picking a number out of a hat. It’s different in different societies and we know for a fact that it’s different person to person.
Consent when it comes to trans or questioning kids has been co-opted by the right so when you question how much someone should be allowed to go on HRT or get gender affirming surgery when they’re young, the knee-jerk assumption is that they’re completely anti-trans. If you look into the trans community there’s still a lot of healthy debate about what lines to draw. We have a lot of research on the effects of something like hormone blockers and it’s generally agreed that they are an effective treatment to young kids questioning their gender that only delays whatever puberty they choose until they can give their full informed consent (ideally after many hours of therapy). When people can give that informed consent is still up in the air.
This thread is about kids medically transitioning, by the time they’re undergoing puberty they’re teens or preteens. Not like six year olds who want to do ballet or whatever.
Removed by mod
Wtf? The fact that you are comfortable conflating those two wildly different topics is concerning.
First of all, being put on hormone therapy isn’t a child deciding their own gender. It is pausing puberty until they are old enough to make an informed decision about their own health and identity.
Secondly, what does gender identity have to do with pedophillia? Gender affirming care is all about harm reduction, not sexualizing literal children…
You seem so disappointed that statutory rape is a crime.
Uh, do you want to rephrase that, because it sounds like you’re mad you can’t fuck kids.
you distorting the comment xd
No, that was me giving them the chance to clarify what they meant if their comment wasn’t them huffing about how preteens/teens can medically transition but not have sex with adults.
Anyway, as someone who is trans and used to be a kid, knowing your gender isn’t really anything like having sex.
If kids can give informed consent doesn’t the entire argument for not fucking kids cause they can’t consent go right out the window? I do not believe kids can give informed consent because they don’t have the capacity, context or knowledge to foresee the consequences of their actions
Personally as a nearly 40 year old I would be horrified by 12 year old me making irreversible life changes for current me
12 year old you (unknowingly) made the irreversible life change of going through the default puberty. Plenty of people regret making that choice.
What is with people being absolutely unable to reconcile ‘children should have some input over their own healthcare decisions, actually’ with ‘grown adults should not be able to sexually prey on children’?
Knowing your gender is so different to having sex that I’m having trouble believing anyone is bringing it up sincerely.