- cross-posted to:
- programming@programming.dev
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
- cross-posted to:
- programming@programming.dev
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se
Four months ago, we asked Are LLMs making Stack Overflow irrelevant? Data at the time suggested that the answer is likely “yes:”
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Four months ago, we asked Are LLMs making Stack Overflow irrelevant?
“That’s a stupid question, marked as solved.”
marked as duplicate, see <other question from 2005, before LLMs were invented>
Make no mistake. LLMs aren’t killing stackoverflow. LLMs just arrived to finish it off. The stuff that was killing it are the regular posters there, and their passive aggressive bullshit
Question closed as off-topic.
Question closed as off-topic.
Removed as duplicate of #264826376: “Question closed as duplicate.”
Sometimes my jokes need explaining...
I’m pointing out that questions on SO too often get closed as duplicates of adjacent (but distinctly different) questions, and I did so in the most confusing, recursive way possible.
Nothing passive about them it was just regular aggressive. Made my programming coursework so much worse. Indian guys on YouTube however, now those guys were helpful!
Yup. I once decided to spend an afternoon answering questions on a framework I was expert in, as a kind of profile-building exercise to help with job hunting, and after around the third smug self-satisfied comment picking me up on some piece of irrelevant bullshit I deleted my account.
I hate how cathartic it is to watch that mountain of bullies burn to the ground 😌
I never asked a question, despite using it daily. Too afraid of being berated 😅
I had a decently awarded account on SO because I joined it in 2012. I asked and answered questions. For the first few years it was fucking awesome as a professional developer. Then it’s popularity on google search results ended up making it too well known and the comment quality dropped substantially. Then the fucking powerusers popped up and started flagging almost everye one my questions as duplicates while pointing to unrelated questions. The last I really used SO was around 2017. I got too fed up to participate in the platform because when I spent the time to make a well formed question, it would just got shut down and my time wasted.
Had the same experience, almost exactly.
It’s not dead until I stop getting 10 year old outdated answers in my searches!
My experience with SO is that I’ll look up a question about how to do something using X method and all the answers are like “why are you using X?” or “here’s how to do it using Y.”. You rarely find people answering the questions and instead find people trying to spread gospel about a certain tech that you aren’t using.
In my experience has been like “that’s a bug and was solved on version 2.1, update” and I’m having the exact problem in version 2.2 so what now?
Or I don’t actually get to update the version my company is using, is there a workaround?
My experience with SO is somewhat the same, but sometimes (actually maybe most times) you’re trying to use a hammer to screw in a screw… If you read the suggestions and take them into account you can often find the actual question, and then the actual answer.
I’ve decided the best way to deal with someone asking an XY question is the following.
- Answer it. I don’t know what this person is doing, maybe they do really need to do some super weird thing and they are 4 weeks deep into “getting this project to work” and they don’t need me giving them the idea they also immediately thought of and can’t do for a bunch of reasons they are too exhausted to go into.
- See if this is an XY problem.
I have found this to be infinitely more well received. I think because by answering the question upfront without any annoying back and forth about why exactly they need to OCR a pdf in JavaScript, they are much more likely to be willing to have a dialog if their immediate question has been met.
The only danger is that some noob might stop reading after the answer and not engage with the deeper design issue, but by gatekeeping the answer behind a “you must convince the council of elders that you are doing something reasonable first” all we’ve done is push those people into ChatGPTs cheery answer first even if you have to make it up hands.
I very rarely ask questions on stack overflow but I appreciate much more as a sanity check on what I’m attempting to do.
In my experience, the majority of people have a flawed initial approach to what they’re trying to do, and if they all follow it they’ll produce a lot of really shitty software and learn very little in the process.
But they’re likely gonna anyway and didn’t even appreciate the sanity checks, so I fully expect software quality will continue to go down.
Yea I just think too many people end up forcing a sanity check before they will answer the question and it tends to make the question askers grumpy.
I’ve just noticed that if I answer their question first and then ask them a sanity check, they will more often engage with my sanity check.
Humans are tribal animals to a great degree, and the older I get the more I just accept that. And so if someone comes and asks me a question and I know they are more likely to accept pointed questions from someone they consider part of their tribe, answering the question first is an easy way to get them to put down their guard and engage.
I think what’s interesting about the ascent of LLMs is that they show that people are hungry for something to just answer their question. So much so that they are willing to deal with getting a completely wrong answer and having to come back and go “that function you suggested doesnt exist” a half dozen times.
I also moderate a couple technical discords and there are always members of the community that want to catalog and organize questions so they never have to answer the same question twice. And I get that impulse, but the thing I realized is that question askers want help.
I made it a point to make a culture around just answering questions and those communities are thriving. We don’t tell people to go search, we don’t tell people to explain themselves. Step one is always, answer their question. Then you are free to ask them why and see if there’s a better approach, but if someone wants to reverse flat map a list, show them how, and then they will be much more receptive to you asking why.
Yeah I mean that all sounds reasonable. I’m rooting for stack overflow to continue because it’s frequently helpful. I’ve basically never found chatgpt to be helpful.
My experience has been more like this:
OP: I’m trying to make lasagna from scratch but my noodles aren’t turning out right. Here’s my noodle recipe and settings for my pasta machine.
Mod: duplicate post of “How to make canned spaghetti bolognese” thread locked.
This was the majority of my experience as well. As a newer programmer, I’m more than happy to always know a better option. But if the way I’m looking to solve my problem is wrong, don’t just give me Y, explain to me why it may not work how I think it will. Tell me about X and some pitfalls or reasoning for it not going to work, then recommend Y. Because if others only see the Y answer to my question about X, they’ll probably just keep searching for a solution to X not knowing it may not work like I didn’t know.
I’ve been in your position and in the other person’s position many times. It can be frustrating but we need to think about the big picture. It’s possible you hadn’t considered a certain approach, and it’s probable that many other future readers will not have considered a certain approach. So even though you might have said that you want to do something specific, it’s often helpful to some people to provide general information of another way to tackle the same issue.
And of course you know your own situation, so now there are these comments that appear off topic, and they kind of are, for you, and that’s just how it is on forums.
The other situation that comes up a lot is that people are doing it wrong. They are misusing some piece of technology and while their kluge might kind of work right now, it’s setting themselves up for bigger issues in the future. Of course no one appreciates it when you tell them they’re doing it wrong.
People don’t like when you don’t answer their question because it doesn’t give them an answer to their question. Just answer the question first and then hop on your high horse to tell them why it’s not going to work.
That’s strange. It’s almost never my experience on stack overflow.
What you’re describing happens mostly on reddit and lemmy.
Thats been my experience as well.
On SO it seems much more likely that the answers answering a different question have a negative score.
I think all that needs to be said is if you search how to install a new CA in a given runtimes cert store, odds are the first and accepted answer will almost without fail describe how to disable ssl.
A lot of times the accepted answer on a locked question will be extremely outdated and/or not even functional anymore.
Modern tech charges at a break neck pace and stack overflow can’t keep up because the people who run the community created rules that artificially led to it not keeping up
Yep, they aggressively XY problem your question until you give up. Also why many questions do not give the answer to the problem what most people asking that question would ask.
Then the author marks the question as answered because doing Y solves their problem…
Good for you, but I actually need to do X and Y wouldn’t work for me. At least change the title so it doesn’t come up as the top result in search engines.
This is honestly the reason why it’s going downhill, forcing people to do Y or use Z because of some problem irrelevant to the question being asked.
It limits creativity and depth of discussion on a forum designed to discuss all principles of programming
I wonder how well LLMs would do without SO’s data
Or Reddit, or Linux forums.
Exactly this. LLMs are already bad at answering questions about very old technology, and I assume they are equally bad at answering questions about very new technology. Also bad at answering questions that have never been asked. We’re doomed.
Sucks because I prefer stack overflow in searches because I get more of a human explanation and wisdom. With llm i have to figure out what it’s_trying to do_ , debug it, and god forbid you want various ways of doing the same thing. I hate LLMs for coding. I hate clients for trying to force me to use it when most of the time now they admit they’re hiring me because AI failed in the first place
Stack Overflow hasn’t been useful for at least 10 years, if not longer.
The flagged “correct” answer is almost always wrong due to idiotic power-users and the vast horde of idiots who upvote obviously wrong answers because they’re bootlickers. The real answer is usually buried in between the posts by gatekeepers, pedants, idiots with something to prove, wannabe admins, egotistical idiots, the highly opinionated technologically insecure, etc ad nauseam. Reddit is just as bad for tech questions, if not worse.
Since I started using LLMs (running on my own inference server) I haven’t used anything else for tech questions that wasn’t opinion-based. Much, much more useful, and it requires you to think seriously about the problem to come up with a good prompt – which often gives you the answer before you even finish the prompt.
This is interesting because a huge amount of AI “knowledge” comes from stack exchange.
Now I’ll go read the other comments and article to see if that’s already been mentioned :)
Anyone remember experts-exchange?
I remember when it didn’t have a dash. Until people started making fun of the old URL…
So easily avoided too
Ah yes, the place that never answered anything.
The sloppiest of slops before we got AI slop.
It was the pinterest of answering stuff
Or if they had an answer, they paywalled it, until Google got pissed at them for including the answer in their SEO but blocking it once the user clicked through. Then they maliciously complied with Google’s demand to not censor by burying the answer under layers upon layers of ads and other “related” questions.
I was so glad to see SO eat their lunch.
I used it in earnest! (to write shitty VB scripts and PHP websites)
Even without LLMs, it’s possible StackOverflow would have eventually faded into irrelevance
Yeah, exactly. A lot of groups have a Discord :( or other forums where people ask questions. I know I’ve had to ask questions on Svelte’s Discord :( for example. And I think even once on some YouTube influencer’s Slack…
Sucks cuz both of those places are silos and my questions and answers are forever lost.
It’s not like discord is any better than SO. It’s a closed platform, often with no read access if you don’t want to register, and it’s not searchable in the slightest.
I would take SO any day over discord.
Yep. 200% agree. I still post questions on SO, but when I don’t get any answers, then I have to go to Discord… :(
Can people access to discord from corporate networks? I’m fucked if the Google answer gave me reddit or github as the answers because they’re blocked.
Github is blocked for you? Bruh
I had to open a ticket for them to unblock the python pep pages! I was trying to teach my intern the pep-8 and didn’t had access. Fucking crazy.
How does that even get on a blocklist 😭
Don’t want the slaves reading the GPL and getting ideas.
I don’t know, but for reddit you may try one of the redlib instances, and gothub for github. I don’t think discord has such frontends
Projects that use Discord for support piss me right off. What a stupid way to keep answering the same question over and over again.
It will endure as long as the LLM’s on there know how to misinterpret the question and fire back snarky unhelpful answers about how clueless you are for asking in the first place.
Like it or hate it (personally I prefer the latter, posting there I felt like a middle schooler with a PUNCH ME sticker on my face) it was a great source of indexable data on programming.
I wonder how will this affect future search and llms, now that all similar questions are being asked in private llm threads.
I never once actually asked a question there. Partly because most of the time, the question I was asking had always been asked.
However, I have found the correct answer to 100s of questions there. Usually through google/ddg/kagi searches.
Ai haters out there, doesn’t this give a valid use case for LLM?
I’ve lost count the number of times where I try to find something in SO, and it’s just someone posting the exact same example code as the answer. Or someone suggesting you just google it. Then I ask ChatGPT… and I get an answer.
