Can I just rant a little to you all?
I’ve tried numerous times to help people from reddit set up an account and get started on Kbin (and lemmy), but 4 out of 5 times people can’t seem to grasp the concept of registering an account and starting to use this platform. Even breaking it down into 2 steps, with direct links… They get angry, and then ragequit their attempt in a huff saying how it’s too fucking complicated and it will never take off because it’s so hard.
Ok, I get that the fediverse is complicated if you think deeply about all the interconnectivity and federation etc, but there is no reason you even have to think about any of it to create an account and get started. Like, at all.
It reminds me so much of my 70/y old mother-in-law not immediately knowing how to work a tv remote and shoving it at me after 1.5 seconds saying “here, I can’t figure this out”. When in reality all she had to do was press the fucking big red button…
I’m just so frustrated with people’s complete lack of ability to help themselves.
It is confusing. Simple as. I have an account on lemmy dot ca, but I don’t understand how to view or participate in kbin content so I just don’t
You are literally participating in kbin content right now, commenting on a thread on a kbin magazine posted by a user registered to kbin.
Tbf, I think that underlines what he was saying. He has no idea where he is, or that he is already participating kbin.
Compare that to reddit, and it’s more complicated.
Why do they need to know?
See a post, upvote it, comment on it. It’s functionally exactly the same as where they came from. The nuances are dramatically unimportant unless or until someone decides they want to use the platform in a more advanced, detailed way, which is going to be like 5% of us.
There’s literally no reason to explain the concept of federation at all unless someone specifically asks “Hey, how can I do this more advanced thing?” The cat pictures are all right here, on my screen, and I can comment on them the exact same way I did on reddit. The only difference is that the interface is a little rougher around the edges at the moment.
First of all, why shouldn’t they know? I’m pretty sure you’ve seen the posts saying reddit is undeleting posts or that lemmy/kbin is “bad for privacy” because they don’t delete comments? Many of them never even realized or remember how pushshift worked. Because they didn’t know. I won’t advocate jumping in blindly to a site/app because, “trust me bro.” It’s even a good thing people want to know what they’re signing up for.
There are literally reasons to explain how it all works. Just scroll on /all and you’ll find a lot of posts asking stuff about the Fediverse and/or how to navigate it. Or to troubleshoot some issues. Or to ask “how do I search this and that?” Etc. I bet I just need less than a minute on my browser to find a post like that.
Let’s say a newcomer arrives, signs up for beehaw (or lemmy.world since it seems to be a popular lemmy instance), and proceeds to get Jerboa. Do you think the app shows all communities you search for out of the box? No. I’ve been there. I have a lot of communities I’m subbed in that I had to use the direct link and search via browser for me to even find it. You can say, “just use the browser,” but you’d be ignoring the fact that many people are unhappy precisely because they can’t use their app anymore so they obviously navigate via an app.
If someone wants to know, they’ll ask. But just using the platform requires exactly none of that knowledge, and trying to infodump all the technical jargony bullshit onto people right from the beginning is absolutely going to make them go “wow, this is complicated” and not come here. Because you’ll convince them that it matters somehow.
Or maybe kbin is just fucking amazing and I’ve been spoiled by not having to know shit about the backend of this. Maybe Lemmy really is more complicated, or something.
Kbin really is pretty cool. Lol. The only reason I’m not on it is because there’s no app. I’m on mobile 95% of the time so browsers don’t really work for me.
I get what you’re saying, and I agree. I’m just saying for some folks it might not be as simple as you and I think it is. And it wouldn’t hurt if the fediverse became a bit more easier for the non-techie people. Some people (like me lol) just makes things needlessly complicated. I’m still trying to convince people to join us here despite the obstacles.
For what it’s worth, I’m only using kbin on mobile and a lack of app hasn’t been an issue for me. I say this having come from Reddit using Relay for a good 8+ years.
Kbin lets you install a Progressive Web App (PWA) which gives you a button that puts it in it’s own separate window from the rest of the stuff running in your browser and to my understanding lets it run in the background to give you notifications if you want (I keep notifications off for most things, so I haven’t tested this aspect).
It might be worth a try. My only caveat is that it isn’t working right in Firefox because they seem to have stopped PWA support, but it works fine in Vivaldi which is chrome-based so other chrome based browsers are probably fine for this use.
Apps are a bit of a relic from the days before responsive web design / mobile-focused web development took off. If you think about it, we really shouldn’t need to download a separate app for every website we visit on a mobile device.
It also underlines what the OP is saying. The average user doesn’t need to do anything or think about anything special to use the platform. Simply making an account and interacting with whatever is on front of you will work.
It’s only complicated if you’re constantly comparing it to reddit in your head and trying to recreate the exact experience here.
Not always. There are the defederated instances, for example. Sometimes things break like lemmy.ml and people are having issues subscribing to communities (it’s apparently just a visual bug, but still). There have been tons of questions about the Fediverse from people who just got here. Kbin, for example, was not federating properly for a while before and we on lemmy could not see any posts on it. That can matter if a specific community is on an instance not accessible to a user for one reason or another.
Edit: I’m not criticizing the Fediverse, but it still has issues to be addressed. It’s pretty young relative to big social media sites like FB, reddit, etc so growing pains are to be expected. But we do need to acknowledge the issues if we hope to fix them later on.
Yes but that’s only relevant if you’re aware of a specific community on a specific instance and expect to be interacting with it on purpose.
It’s completely irrelevant if someone just gives you the name of an instance, tells you to make an account on it and start using. You’ll be perfectly fine reading and commenting whatever’s in your feed.
The only way this breaks is if you’re in an instance that is too small to have local traffic while having technical difficulties with federation. If the instance is active enough or it’s federating normally, someone completely unaware of the concept of federation will be perfectly fine as long as they understand the interface.
True. I agree with you. Hopefully soon most technical issues will be resolved enough to not matter to the average user. I’d love for us to grow more, and I think we should address the barriers that are preventing some “normies” (for lack of a better term) from heading here. I know some are just making up excuses, but hell my mom just learned how to post in facebook middle of last year. Lmao. Some are just easily confused.
Yup, it’s like email but take away recipients. Yea, there’s sorta recipients, but you don’t really know who it’s federated with/etc. We (foss devs) need better optics here. UX is difficult, though i welcome ideas.
You gotta admit, this right here is a pretty classic fediverse moment.
Is there an active “BestOf” community? Lmao
I also did not know what a kbin is as of a few minutes ago, but the great thing is, that I really didn’t need to know. I guess it feels “complicated” because there is much that can be learned but you don’t necessary have to.
People also did not know how the Reddit backends work and just used it but apparently they feel that they HAVE to learn how the fediverse works on day 1.
you’re participating in kbin content right now…
The funny part is, you’re viewing and participating in kbin content right here. This is a thread posted to kbin. My reply will look to you as if it was made in lemmy, but it’s not. I have a kbin account, and that’s the magic at work.
The best analogy I heard so far is email; everyone gets that you can send an email from gmail to outlook. We are just not used to that websites can interconnect with each other but give it some time and it will be second nature to people
Please stop with the email analogy. It really doesn’t help with anything. You send emails to an email address, people don’t think of the back end of that process at all and can’t make an analogy to social media where posts just… go out into the ether.
The only reason this is confusing is that tech-heads in these services can’t shut up about federation despite federation being largely irrelevant to the experience. The fact that the poster above didn’t even notice that the interaction is happening cross-service but still was confused about how to interact cross-service tells you that the way to help people get over how “hard” understanding federation is would be to shut up about it.
I mean, that won’t help with people not being willing to just make an account on a place at all, but yeah, everybody is so pleased about the interoperability thing that they make the day-to-day use of federated services seem a lot more convoluted than it is in practice.
I actually agree. Nobody explains DNS to people trying to understand how mail works. They don’t need to understand MX records, SPF records, DMARC, DKIM, or anything. All they need to know is sign up and how to use the To: field to start sending emails. Hell - you don’t even need to and probably don’t want to explain the purpose of the CC or BCC fields at this point either.
If a user is trying to actually understand the underlying technology then the email analogy can be a first introduction. But if someone is technical enough to be trying to learn it’s better to just teach them about ActivityPub.
I don’t know if you’re aware but …
As the others have pointed out, this is a kbin thread. Since your account is on an instance that’s federated, all the content comes to you, you don’t have to do anything special.
…this whole thread is on kbin
Looks like you figured it out by accident, this is a kbin thread lol. It’s functionally identical to taking part in Lemmy threads, the complicated stuff is happening in the background as our instances communicate. Threads from all instances show up in the “All” tab and you can participate in them just the same as if they were from your own, for the most part. Since you’re on a relatively large instance as well, you should be able to search for just about any community you want using Lemmy’s own search bar and be able to find one without having to worry about if it’s in another instance or not. Chances are, whatever instance its on has been visited by someone else before, so the link between the two already exists. I hope this helps!
I can only assume that the people having trouble understanding kbin/lemmy are either relatively young, or relatively inexperienced with technology. Basically those people whose online experience really only started in the era of Reddit/Facebook/Twitter/etc. Those of us who were online in the early 2000s are familiar with web forums. Kbin Magazines/Lemmy Communities are basically just web forums that can be interacted with from any kbin or Lemmy instance that’s federated. Those of us who are even older and were online in the 90s (or earlier) are familiar with Usenet. Kbin Magazines/Lemmy Communities are basically Usenet newsgroups, with the particular instance you’re on essentially the same as your Usenet provider. Or for the really old folks like me, instances are like BBSes that are connected to each other with FidoNet.
It reminds me of people who get confused getting on Discord for the first time, when it’s really just a modern incarnation of chat-rooms or IRC. None of these ideas are new, and people were able to figure out these core concepts decades ago.
I was unsure of which instance to go with, but I got on Kbin as soon as I saw that it had Oauth. (just don’t want to deal with it)
Most people are really dumb when it comes to technology.
They are coming here because they are angry at Reddit. They are still angry when they get here. Being angry is not conducive to having a good experience of something new, especially if they didn’t want to leave Reddit in the first place. Kbin/Lemmy is being sold as a forced upgrade. It’s like if your word processor has all its icons moved around and put into a side bar that’s hidden until you know where to click. Why the fuck did they do that? We all hate that sort of shit, and that’s what it feels like being forced to come here.
If you are going to promote Kbin/Lemmy, you need to change their mindset before they get here or they will just see a forced downgrade onto a broken Reddit clone.
That’s a fair assessment, and I hadn’t considered the anger from being a forced change. I have good reasons for seeking an alternative and thus invested in making the change. That may not be the case for most.
I don’t properly understand how all of this works.
But signing up to kbin on the weekend was just like signing up for anything else online.
And once I did, replying to posts - like this one - was more or less the same as replying on any other discussion forum.
So…I don’t get it, what’s so hard? Do you really need to understand the technical details underneath to start using this place?
That said, I would like to grasp this whole thing a little better. But I figured the best way to do that is to jump straight in and go from there! :)
I don’t blame anyone for getting frustrated. The whole concept of the fediverse is quite confusing to someone that knew nothinf about it prior, and I myself am only just starting to get a grasp on things. The whole experience reminds me of the first time i heard about bitcoin and trying to wrap head around the blockchain.
I (and i assume many others) have been unhappy with reddit’s direction for some time now, and forcedully ending the life of my third party app of choice (RIF) just happened to be the straw that broke the camels back.
To many of us this is the last straw, but to many others who may be newer users, or may have already been using the official Reddit app this probably does not seem like a huge deal.
Only time will tell if the folks leaving were generating the lions share of the worthwhile content, or if we are just the vocal minority and life will go on. Some folks aren’t looking for a new home, and even if these events are what lead to Reddit’s eventual demise it will take years for said demise to play out.
My hot take: I’m okay with a barrier to entry (right now).
Getting setup on the fediverse isn’t necessarily a super simple process and there is a bit of learning curve for how it works.
That’s okay. I actually like it. Here’s why.
It means the people here want to be here. It means the people here understand what it is and more importantly what it isn’t. It’s not a reddit clone. It’s not even old school forums. It’s this.
And “this” isn’t even it’s final form. I fully expect for the fediverse to evolve over the next few months and years. As a community develops and the technology is refined, I am sure it will all get simpler as we knock off the rough edges.
In the mean time, this tiny barrier to entry keeps a lot of the whiners and naysayers away. It keeps people that only want a reddit clone, away. If you want reddit, use reddit. It’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
It’s a balancing act, because we don’t want to turn so many people away that we can’t build a reasonable community, but you also don’t want a bad copy of a system people are leaving.
I hear you. People have very little pain/change tolerance. Humans want things easy the first time. Those who stick around the fediverse have higher pain tolerance. They are more cognitively flexible. They are principled. There’s a short time of adjustment that one has to tolerate.
I’m thankful for all those who have the strength to say “NO” to the likes of /spez. It’s a small thing but it shows some determination and character.
This surprised me when I realized it: how little frustration tolerance most people have when they don’t understand something at first.
Maybe one factor is that people are already saturated by the complexity they are forced to deal with everyday because of work and bureaucracy, so they won’t put up with something unnecessary.
Seriously, the Internet was better before it was so accessible. I might sound arrogant, but I don’t care. I want people here who actually have half a clue about how to operate a computer. If someone doesn’t even know how to sign up to a website and rage quits, I’m quite glad they aren’t here.
The majority of people out there are plain dumb bud. Don’t get angry is a normal rate in the human race.
Anyone got a good tutorial to share for folks who want to jump?
It reminds me so much of my 70/y old mother-in-law not immediately knowing how to work a tv remote and shoving it at me after 1.5 seconds saying “here, I can’t figure this out”. When in reality all she had to do was press the fucking big red button…
It’s not just you, the one who is helping us, feeling like this. It’s us feeling like this too… or atleast I feel like this.
Suddenly, I’m no longer the technologically sound person that I used to be. I’m overwhelmed. My hectic schedule and paucity of free time is not helping the case, either. There’s just too much to read about; figure out… Took me a good hour or so just to create an account. Then another good few minutes to login, when it asked “instances” or something that I wanted to login into.
It’s quite different from what I’m used to. I’m feeling as though there’s so much that I’m being forced to learn. And I’m annoyed, extremely annoyed, that I’ve been forced to leave the one place I used to enjoy. I miss the content that I used to enjoy on reddit.
People like yourself, ones taking time out of their day to help us, are really a boon right now. For days (really, a couple hours spread across days), I searched for alternatives to reddit. Tried to read and grasp a couple of guides before I made-up my mind to take that plunge.
I see where you’re coming from. And all I can say is, maybe once people get into the head-space to finally migrate, they may be more open to learning. They may still rage a bit about it - I know I am. But they may be open to learn.
Just want you to know that these guides and helps are most welcome right now. Thank you for helping us.
If the super-easy signup process is a barrier to entry for someone, is that person really worth having here? This may sound crazy, but I want barriers to entry.
Anyone recall how much better the internet was when it cost a few thousand bucks, and a bit of technical know-how, to even get online? It was no utopia, but it also wasn’t everyone’s Aunt Betty, who can’t operate a toaster, on her iPhone screaming “5G gives you covid DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!1”
After finding the voting system better than Slashdot’s, I was on Reddit for 14 years; I fell in love with it at the start, and slowly fell out of love each time they dumbed the site down, in order to lower the barrier to entry. It went from a forum for a community of nerds, to a Facebook meme image board, and each step was a painful reminder of Eternal September in action.
The Fediverse still has that old feeling of community, and I don’t want Eternal September to happen here (and it is happening, but not to a terrible extent, yet). I wish signing up really was confusing. Nothing good will come from adding training wheels for Aunt Betty.
Eh, fuck 'em. There’s only so much you can do, and it sounds like you’ve made it very easy. Move on and spend your time on those who are out of the loop but of a growth mindset. Who do you really want here anyway?
