Oh yeah, the muscles came with their thick skulls and brutally assaulted the batons of the berkut and titushky.
Get fucked. I think how I’m going to start to deal with it when people start commenting bullshit to me, is to start to make posts about the accurate side of the matter, so that the sum total impact of you talking with me will be the spread of a lot more accurate information, instead of anything achieving your actual goal.
Tell me more about these far-right NGOs. Which NGOs, and about how many of their “muscles” were in the protests in 2013?
I took that straight from the Reddit thread I linked, you can find more there (there are some links to other sources as well). There were dozens of far-right NGOs, some of the biggest ones are listed in Wikipedia article you posted (Right Sector, Svoboda, UDAR, Spilna Sprava, Misanthropic Division). By the evening of today dozens of our popular videobloggers made videos about USAID and Maidan. I’m getting kinda sick of digging through this stuff.
Here’s my reply to your comment elsewhere, off topic:
he wished he could live in Russia
I would only ever travel out of there once and never come back. I’m just envy that they can leave freely if they don’t like anything. We don’t have such option.
You said “I said it has open borders which is factually true. Also, last summer they paid their conscripts in Moscow 22k$ for a contract. Regarding “human rights”, well, lets try to count human rights. We don’t have the right to criticise our government and we don’t have the right to leave the country. Russians don’t have the right to criticize their government but they do have the right to leave the country. They also pretty much free to walk their cities and participate in whatever activities present there unlike our conscription-aged men who are only really allowed to participate in war.” Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
paid thugs coming in rough up anyone who opposed it
I never said that.
You said “Apparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were “the muscles” of Maidan were funded by west.” In general, you seem to think that without “the West”, Maidan would never have succeeded, which given how little the West as a whole cares about Ukraine is pretty laughable. But it’s hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the “muscles” were helping it succeed, and it wasn’t a genuine people’s movement.
Ukraine’s military was corrupt and mismanaging the war
Our government admit this and talk about it every day, yet they only fight each other and don’t do anything to fix it.
“Your” government has fended off an enemy which is outspending and outmanning it by more than an order of magnitude. Of course, this kind of thing happens sometimes with empires, but usually if the little country is incompetent, it stops working the instant that US troops leave the country.
I made this point, and you made a weird non sequitur about “caldrons” that didn’t really seem to grasp the core point that I was making.
I’m not really interested in the conversation anymore, I just wanted to respond since you made some specific points accusing me of misrepresenting you. That’s what you said, maybe my summary was sloppy. I’m just mostly not interested in what you have to say anymore, to be honest.
Also:
he wishes he could be in Russia where he could get $22k for signing up with the military
You’re again making things up about what I said. Also, you keep failing to understand the motives even though I explained them. You can just read it again more carefully.
You said, “And payment is laughable anyway. It would be really easy to boost morale if government decided to end forced conscription and paid to volunteers more than russia does. And it also could probably help to stabilize the frontlines. Given how much they steal I’m pretty sure they have more than enough money to pay more than russians 22k$ to volunteers as a single-time payment.”
Maybe you’re right, my summary was pretty inaccurate there. It sounded to me like you were pining for the higher pay, similar to my “envy” quotation above, but it’s true you didn’t explicitly say it.
Like I say, I’m mostly done, just wanted to respond to the accusation that I was lying about what you said.
Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
True, but that doesn’t mean I want to live in Russia. It’s just ridiculous to fight for what our people get and how our government treats us vs country that gives their people more and treats their people better. Countries aren’t something that has inherent self-worth after all, the whole concept of states was supposed to be a tool to make people live better.
But it’s hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the “muscles” were helping it succeed
Those “muscles” played central role in making it succeed, people alone couldn’t do it. Civilians in general are really bad at violence, especially in eastern europe. I was a student back then, and I didn’t know a single person among my classmates or relatives or their contacts who went to Maidan.
and it wasn’t a genuine people’s movement.
It’s “genuine” in a sense there is definitely something upsetting people and at the right time forces come in to drive that energy of people into revolution. The point is, it doesn’t happen to most of things upsetting people. Since then we’ve many times had 100x more reasons for another Maidan, but there were no forces investing into “muscles” during long timeframes that were interested in our upset at those moments to overthrow government again. West is way more interested in dealing maximum damage to Russia at the cost of lives of ukrainians than saving lives of ukrainians. Also West thinks that if we become Russia it would just mean that Russia became stronger and it’s better to just kill us all to prevent Russia from getting us. It’s understandable point of view, but we as ukrainians are not interested in it.
I wrote a longer reply to this, but my browser ate it. Short version:
You’re right about the West’s treatment of Ukraine. Read Dan Ellsberg’s writing about “the stalemate machine” for a look at how it works, written by someone who worked inside the places where these decisions get made.
You keep claiming no one in Ukraine wants to fight, but their military is killing Russians at a pace that far exceeds what militaries where no one wants to fight would be able to accomplish. I keep making this point, and you keep ignoring it and just repeating your talking points.
I can’t decide which Ukraine-specific RSS feed to create and promote. I think it should just be one for now, multiple isn’t necessary. Which one do you think I should pick?
Oh yeah, the muscles came with their thick skulls and brutally assaulted the batons of the berkut and titushky.
Get fucked. I think how I’m going to start to deal with it when people start commenting bullshit to me, is to start to make posts about the accurate side of the matter, so that the sum total impact of you talking with me will be the spread of a lot more accurate information, instead of anything achieving your actual goal.
https://ponder.cat/post/1518838
Have fun! Tell me more about these far-right NGOs. Which NGOs, and about how many of their “muscles” were in the protests in 2013?
I took that straight from the Reddit thread I linked, you can find more there (there are some links to other sources as well). There were dozens of far-right NGOs, some of the biggest ones are listed in Wikipedia article you posted (Right Sector, Svoboda, UDAR, Spilna Sprava, Misanthropic Division). By the evening of today dozens of our popular videobloggers made videos about USAID and Maidan. I’m getting kinda sick of digging through this stuff.
Here is Reddit thread I posted before: https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/tg9zwp/what_evidence_exists_for_or_against_the_assertion/
Here’s my reply to your comment elsewhere, off topic:
You said “I said it has open borders which is factually true. Also, last summer they paid their conscripts in Moscow 22k$ for a contract. Regarding “human rights”, well, lets try to count human rights. We don’t have the right to criticise our government and we don’t have the right to leave the country. Russians don’t have the right to criticize their government but they do have the right to leave the country. They also pretty much free to walk their cities and participate in whatever activities present there unlike our conscription-aged men who are only really allowed to participate in war.” Sounds like you envy a lot more about it than just the ability to leave.
You said “Apparently a lot of those far-right NGOs who were “the muscles” of Maidan were funded by west.” In general, you seem to think that without “the West”, Maidan would never have succeeded, which given how little the West as a whole cares about Ukraine is pretty laughable. But it’s hard for me to interpret this combination any other way than that the “muscles” were helping it succeed, and it wasn’t a genuine people’s movement.
“Your” government has fended off an enemy which is outspending and outmanning it by more than an order of magnitude. Of course, this kind of thing happens sometimes with empires, but usually if the little country is incompetent, it stops working the instant that US troops leave the country.
I made this point, and you made a weird non sequitur about “caldrons” that didn’t really seem to grasp the core point that I was making.
I’m not really interested in the conversation anymore, I just wanted to respond since you made some specific points accusing me of misrepresenting you. That’s what you said, maybe my summary was sloppy. I’m just mostly not interested in what you have to say anymore, to be honest.
Also:
You said, “And payment is laughable anyway. It would be really easy to boost morale if government decided to end forced conscription and paid to volunteers more than russia does. And it also could probably help to stabilize the frontlines. Given how much they steal I’m pretty sure they have more than enough money to pay more than russians 22k$ to volunteers as a single-time payment.”
Maybe you’re right, my summary was pretty inaccurate there. It sounded to me like you were pining for the higher pay, similar to my “envy” quotation above, but it’s true you didn’t explicitly say it.
Like I say, I’m mostly done, just wanted to respond to the accusation that I was lying about what you said.
Enjoy: https://ponder.cat/post/1522382
True, but that doesn’t mean I want to live in Russia. It’s just ridiculous to fight for what our people get and how our government treats us vs country that gives their people more and treats their people better. Countries aren’t something that has inherent self-worth after all, the whole concept of states was supposed to be a tool to make people live better.
Those “muscles” played central role in making it succeed, people alone couldn’t do it. Civilians in general are really bad at violence, especially in eastern europe. I was a student back then, and I didn’t know a single person among my classmates or relatives or their contacts who went to Maidan.
It’s “genuine” in a sense there is definitely something upsetting people and at the right time forces come in to drive that energy of people into revolution. The point is, it doesn’t happen to most of things upsetting people. Since then we’ve many times had 100x more reasons for another Maidan, but there were no forces investing into “muscles” during long timeframes that were interested in our upset at those moments to overthrow government again. West is way more interested in dealing maximum damage to Russia at the cost of lives of ukrainians than saving lives of ukrainians. Also West thinks that if we become Russia it would just mean that Russia became stronger and it’s better to just kill us all to prevent Russia from getting us. It’s understandable point of view, but we as ukrainians are not interested in it.
I wrote a longer reply to this, but my browser ate it. Short version:
Here’s your dose of general Ukraine postings:
https://ponder.cat/post/1528372
I can’t decide which Ukraine-specific RSS feed to create and promote. I think it should just be one for now, multiple isn’t necessary. Which one do you think I should pick?