Hamas never posed an existential threat to Israel.
“Major” meaning they couldn’t pull off another October 7th
Though really they shouldn’t have been able to pull off the first October 7th.
Yup, reminder that they ignored prior warnings
And strongly suspected of outright sponsoring Hamas to generate the casus belli
That’s not even just a strong suspicion, that’s established fact. Even aggressively pro-regime rags such as Times of Israel, The New York Times and The Jerusalem Post acknowledge as much.
Yes, but none of these articles link the funds to the casus belli for genocide. That could be the case, but it could also be he simply wanted to destabilize Hamas/PLO, which is what happened ultimately.
In the 7th attacks maybe but we don’t know yet. We do know that Israel has funded them in the past though
The fact that the Qatari funds have been enabled by Netanyahu is pretty etablished. The casus belli is pure speculation. Do you have a source for that?
Yeah I find it hard to believe that the Israeli intelligence apparatus, Mossad, one of the best HUMINT organizations on par with the old Soviet Union KGB, failed to see October 7 coming.
Also warnings from US SIGINT that an attack was probable about a month in advance.
I really think there are two different aspects to the classification of the threat. It’s actually pretty analogous to the Afghanistan War.
First, neither Al Quaeda nor Hamas represent an existential threat to their opponents. The US hasn’t really faced a believable existential threat since the collapse of the USSR, Israel hasn’t really faced one since the 80s. Countries in Eastern Europe face an existential threat from Russia. And so on. Killing 1200 (or 3000) people, no matter how brutally or unjustified or evil it seems, it does not threaten to destroy the state of Israel. It is, of course, now an existential threat to Netanyahu, which is one reason why it’s being pursued with such enthusiasm.
The second aspect builds from the first and questions whether the solution pursued by Israel (and the US) were both efficient (ie proportional to the threat so as not to divert attention and resources from other threats) and effective. They have to be expected to achieve specific and measurable goals and timelines.
The ability to pull off an Oct 7th might have been equally well but more efficiently and effectively with intelligence and commando units, and Israel would have been given free rein by most of the planet to do so.
Tbf the US was doing just fine in Afghanistan until Bush literally let Bin Laden just walk away because he wanted to make a show of the Northern Alliance capturing him and turning him over.
From that point forward it was a saga of willful ignorance to the fact that Pakistan would literally do everything to make the mission harder because the US wanted a stable Afghanistan that doesn’t let the Taliban come back and Pakistan wanted an effective zone of no governance that can’t raise claims on Pashtunistan and Balochistan.
Israel are just being a bunch of weenies too afraid to develop a strategy to enter the tunnels to actually pursue any of the goals they claim they’re after while quarantining refugee camps from entryways into the tunnel system to seal anyone hiding or rallying down there off from being able to just hop out and pretend to be civvies at the end of the work shift.
Israel could easily have turned this into a point to point clear and capture operation on the tunnels since it’s so blatantly obvious that Hamas is hiding in there with the hostages, but they aren’t doing that because that would require actually using Israeli troops and Israeli troops are slowly turning more and more mutinous towards the current regime.
Title was about a major threat
Palestinians aren’t a threat to israel.
Israel is a threat to Palestinians.
But Hamas is or maybe was a threat to Israel
Israel already had one or the two piece puzzle to stopping Hamas from being a threat; they had a strong air-defense system, and could’ve used their military reserves to actually properly defend their border. A disgrace that motorcycles and gliders could just waltz on over, especially in lieu of known intelligence of an impending attack.
Leveling Gaza only exacerbates radicalization for decades to come without actually addressing the root causes for said radicalization.
They’re just following the Western playbook for counter-terrorism but it’s next level deranged
If you punch people they are a threat because they might punch back - israel
In the same analogy you punch them until they stop fighting. Stay down. What ever the definition is for you’ve won and they give up.
Problem here is the weaker side wants to genocide the other. So no matter when they stop the fight will still go on.
Irony is Israel was formed due to genocide against them. Whole situation is a centuries old religious mess.
The weaker side does not want to Genocide whatsoever this is already proven in the West Bank that tried to settle for peace but still gets ethnically cleansed by Nazisrael
The myth that Palestinians want to Genocide israelis is a massive myth. And israel was formed by committing Genocide not by being Genocided. Especially not by Palestinians.
Zionists existed before WW2.
Palestinian civilians would also be allowed to return to their homes across the enclave
Oof.
They’ll be welcome to pick up the rubble and extract the remains of their family on their own time and labor.
his agreement/plan also called for extensive reconstruction efforts for gaza…
Hundreds of thousands of temporary shelters would also be delivered.
Reconstruction will not be overnight and theres a lot of things like schools and hospitals to rebuild too.
The plan is to work with partners towards reconstruction. I know that terminology well: If I am to compare this to how this kind of stuff is handled domestically after say, a natural disaster: a lot of people are going to be left waiting a long time in rubble.
I think estimates are month or two ago was that it would take upward of a decade to clear rubble. Unless Israel ends its siege they will have a hard time importing any building materials, and countries that historically sponsored major works such as hospitals and universities will be reluctant to do so, because why invest hundreds a of millions into a construction project that Israel will just bomb a few years later?
It’s ridiculous how much rebuilding takes, at least in the US, and how much racism and classism plays into it.
I went to NOLA like 5 years after Hurricane Katrina and most of the houses I saw in “certain” (poor) neighborhoods still had the spray paint on them from first responders. Also one of the (predominantly black) universities there I don’t think had fully rebuilt either at that point while the other (predominantly white) university had just gotten a new sports field.
I just can’t imagine being in a war torn place where much of the world hardly acknowledges you as a human and trying to rebuild your community.
It just blows my mind every day the cruelty in this world - and the fact that there are so many genocides happening simultaneously. I still remember when I was a small child finding out that WW2 did not hold the only genocide the world had ever or would ever see. I still can’t quite wrap my head around it.
For me it was rodney king, figured that shit belonged back in the 1800s and we weren’t a bunch of fucking barbarians any more. It’s hard, coming from what should be, into what is.
Only if it gets to phase 3
Palestinian civilians would also be allowed to return to their homes across the enclave
Trust me, if Bibi were allowed to craft policy unilaterally this WOULD NOT HAPPEN. Yes, tens of thousands of homes have been destroyed but THEY CAN AND MUST BE REBUILT INSTEAD OF CONVERTED INTO NEW SETTLEMENTS.
Likud poses a major threat to Palestine.
Likud poses a major threat to Israel.
The israeli government needs to be dismantled so Palestinians can live safely.
Biden telling Israel to stop, without interfering. Complain all you want about Biden, but he just did what you wanted.
We demand him to interfer. We demand hi to stop sending weapons and to sanction Israel. We demand war criminals to be brought to justice, instead we get the ICC threatened by the US.
Also the proposal of Biden is practically the same as the peace deal Hamas has accepted a few weeks back and was rejected by Israel, only then for the US to send more weapons, which since have been used to massacre women and children again and again.
Israel has actually rejected this “deal” already despite Hamas being in favor. Biden can fuck off and so can the hundreds of his sycophants on Lemmy. Before I get accused of supporting trump. I don’t and I can’t vote in your bs election anyway so shove that where the fucking sun don’t shine.
Biden did fuck all. Until there are severe sanctions on Israel government, Biden can fuck off.
Sanctions won’t do anything, Israel have their own defense industry pumping out legitimately very high quality and large volumes of arms.
I don’t care about Israel, I care about their genocidal government. Which should get ICJ warrants and a full set of sanctions.
Again, that will do nothing. Those institutions are toothless. As soon as a single ICJ officer steps foot into the country to arrest Netanyahu, the local authorities can simply detain and deport. Netanyahu can simply send couriers or teleconference to other countries for diplomacy efforts and never leave the safety of Israel.
The only justice we can see is if the population of Israel collectively demands Bibi go to jail.
Remember when the left wing used to complain about how the US used to be too involved in foreign affairs?
I do.
So we can’t ask for intervention over ongoing genocide that the US is funding?? Pull all funding from Israel, place high level sanction on Israel/Israeli leadership on par with Russia, and stop sending them fucking bombs. Stop trying to act like Biden hasn’t been complicit in what’s been happening.
Wow, glad he stopped sending some bombs after Israel destroyed as much of the housing infrastructure as possible. All while he continues to send weapons and now possibly F-15s to Israel. Fuck Biden and his monstrous administration.
Wow he wagged his finger instead of sanctioning israel.
We really needed that weekly finger wagging and so libs can gaslight people that Biden totally isn’t on board with Genocide.
The left wing used to complain that the US was too involved in foreign affairs. That the US should get out of other people’s business and stop trying to control the world.
Used? Was?
Keep going…
All he did was create a headline. Nothing will come of it.
You can’t call it good faith to say, “hey, cut it out” while checks notes STILL SUPPLYING WEAPONS.
I didn’t want him to be a hypocrite if that’s what you’re implying
Some of those weapons are used by the Iron Dome system provide protection for Israeli civilians when Hamas fires rockets at them. Do you want Israeli civilians to die from Hamas rockets?
Now the best defense for both Israelis and Palestinians would be to get everyone to agree to a ceasefire. Which is exactly what Biden is doing. But until that happens we know what Hamas will do if Israel doesn’t have adequate defenses. We saw this on October 7.
The goal of the “stop supplying Israel with weapons” narrative is to allow Hamas to do what they want, which is genocide on the Israeli people. Is that what you want?
All of this is bad faith and not sourced.
After what they just did they just have radicalized way more people than the number of Hamas fighters they managed to kill.
Cool, so you’ll stop giving Israel money and/or weapons, right?
Padme stares at Anakin
Right?
Legally, he actually can’t.
One day Palestine will be free just like all those old colonized countries
Sure maybe someday… but there needs to be a little less emphasis on inevitability and a little more on how to make a potential Palestinian stat be a functional country.
The current ruling class of Palestine are corrupt and incompetent. The feeling that by only hating Israel a lot will result in a Palestinian state has had the effect of Palestine having bad leadership. No one holds Palestinian leadership to account because the excuse that “it’s all Israel’s fault” can be used for any problem.
A Palestinian state right now would be an instant failed state. A state which could fall back under the rule of either Hamas (or a group just like it), and we’ll see the exact same thing we’re seeing now happening a few decades from now.
Governing a Palestinian state will be extremely difficult for even a competent government, and the current leadership of Palestine is far from competent.
There’s a dream of a Palestinian state but it will always be only a dream until people can accept the realities of the challenges involved with creating a stating and Palestinians can find leaders capable of facing those challenges. Dreams happen when sleeping, you can’t create a state unless you have both eyes open.
Removing Hamas from the equation is a step in this direction… they didn’t really govern at all, they just built rockets and tunnels and had the UN handle most of the responsibilities of governing. But Fatah as it is right now isn’t really up to it either.
Real leaders need to step up in Palestine. That means working solve problems regardless of who’s fault they may be.
Never in history a colonizer left without armed resistance to weaken it enough so they are forced to leave.
This sounds like something straight out of 4chan.
Why? I never been there
Thinly veiled antisemitism.
How is that antisemitism? Israel is an invading force here, and has been for decades.
Not to mention that israel is racist agains ethiopian jews
That’s quite interesting to hear. Do you have sources?
A) There’s no antisemitism in that comment. You’re reading what you want to read. B) 4chan is not familiar with the term “thinly veiled.” They use outright, in-your-face antisemitism in those parts.
I’m not sure where you’re seeing antisemitism here.
Today I learned it’s anti-Semitic to hope for a free Palestine.
Ok, so is he willing to finally enforce a cease-fire?
Even if he is, there’s probably a law on the books restricting what he can do towards that end, because fucking AIPAC apparently had the advance plans for how the 10/7 war would play out and slapped a shitton of barriers down on cutting aid to israel or consequencing them in any way at the peak of the “criticizing israel is antisemitism!” mindset
Even if there’s a legal text that enforces providing aid to Israel, there’s also legal text forbidding it. If the executive can’t solve the contradiction of different laws forcing them to do one thing and its opposite, simultaneously respecting both, they’re at a position where they can choose which side they want to give priority to.
You can’t “enforce” a cease fire without invading Israel and physically stop them. Sanctions are wrist slaps.
The threat is gone, Israel. You can stop killing innocent children now.
Oh I know you won’t regardless. Honestly, why do you claim to be “defending yourself” anyway if you’re basically doing this?
It’ll never be gone because too many people feel like they need to hold onto their hatred.
Of course they can find an excuse.
Jesus Christ, joe. I guess I was wrong and you haven’t been paying attention to the subject for the last 70+ years?
Hamas is just an arm of the resistance movement against western/american imperialism, which mostly means israel over there, it being the client state. they want their land back.
because artificial zionist state (aka Israel)leaders are a threat for themselves
