- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I’m going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won’t do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: “But that’s not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I’m voting 3rd party 😤”
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they’re very young and naive.
Don’t fall for it. You’ll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Oh, I’m not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I’m just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don’t often argue in good faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they’re trying to spin for the bystander audience. I’ll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that’s right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence… oof… i know… brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Great point - I don’t mean to disparage those newcomers to politics. We’ve all been there of course.
I guess I gate-kept a bit there myself, and my apologies for that.
No no no! I didn’t take it that way at all, just wanted to add the clarification i figured u left out.
I figured if u were gatekeeping against youth u wouldnt have even bothered to comment at all. Sorry if i sounded like i was putting down ur point for it, u were saying something i think we all could hear more on this platform. Esp as the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
Comments like this give me hope friend. Keep fighting the good fight :)
I feel like i dispense a lot of thank yous and encouragement to everyone else to keep it up. It feels nice to be on the receiving end so randomly. Thanks dude. Made me smile, for real <3
Aight im back to say, im rereading this thread and some of ur other comments above (about astroturfing leading the young esp) go so hard.
So me fight the good fight? You, you sir keep fighting the good fight. As in the present tense. As in u have been. Dont stop.
Solidarity to u and all other leftist speakers and activists seeking change by whichever means they know how…
Just leave some in the bank for when election season is upon us…
Aw thanks and likewise — comments like yours really help to shatter all the depression and gaslighting that gets spread and restores some semblance of sanity :)
And don’t worry about losing steam! I’m amped up for the election year and will only continue to ramp it up! I have frankly too many ideas to enhance my personal impact on the election and need to get better organized lol.
the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
if it existed, why haven’t you ever produced any evidence of it?
Bc im not wasting my time on yall. Im not going to participate in what will either turn into a gush gallop or gaslighting. Uve got it in this thread. U got it all over hexbear and .ml.
Thanks for caring enough to follow tho 🥰
a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no one should believe your claims unless you support them.
It’s a few of the astroturfers leading a bunch of the young and naive.
Fucking. Preach.
$5 say the “They should earn my vote” line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018’s #WalkAway movement.
i don’t believe you can prove anyone (not everyone, just one person) who doesn’t think biden is good enough is either right wing or “young and naive”
No but I can prove they’re short-sighted; and those two things go hand-in-hand. In my experience I’ve frankly yet to see someone older than like 22-years-old espouse such self-defeating beliefs and goals.
I can also prove that right-wing extremists engage in political astroturfing routinely and that according to investigative reporting these far-right groups intend to muddy the waters.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
can prove they’re short-sighted;
how? what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
EDIT: Observe the user below spamming multiple replies to the same comment. This is part of the gaslighting gish-gallop tactic I’ve noted. There is a user here I suspect of having many alt accounts and who frequently does this. I encourage you to report them for spam.
what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
If I may, a thing called logic.
- If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
- If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
- If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
- If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
- If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
- If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
👏👏👏
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No, but voting for Trump or helping him win by hiding behind a 3rd party candidate will advance fascism guaranteed. But please, continue astroturfing this thread with your repeating, broken argument.
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Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
this isn’t proof. it’s innuendo.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
The poster is just “go fuck yourself”
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can’t believe you’re asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don’t even care about ponies
It’s called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
For a second there, I was willing to accept you might be arguing in good faith, but the personal attack you felt the need to tack on destroyed that benefit of doubt and my willingness to continue in debate.
There was no personal attack there.
Have you ever talked to someone irl? If so, did you do it without crying?
I am arguing in good faith, obviously. There was no personal attack. I’m sure you draw some distinction between pure morals (as in trek) and “real life” but I genuinely do not see how this is defensible. I’m sure you’re a nice person
Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, “sweetie”.
Real strange way to make a point
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
“Something different” here meaning “handing over the position to the worse of the two options”.
Acting like Candidate 1 won’t do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
I’d rather stab the person trying to stab me anywhere.
You’re getting stabbed whatever happens.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
The third option is to reject the United States and replace it with something that isn’t an oligarchy
Neither.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
Do y’all just, sincerely not understand what “lesser evil” means? Yes, the lesser evil is still bad. We know. That’s what “evil” means. Both options suck, one sucks measurably more, so you choose the one that is less bad.
None of these “Both sides!” Leftists ever seem to offer specific or workable alternatives. It’s always something vague like “Have our voices be heard, take back the country from the oligarchs!” And I feel that, but like, how? What specific candidate or action is going to prevent both from winning?
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You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. “If you elect our guy, he won’t be able to do anything, but at least it’s better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he’ll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It’s safe!”
Um what?
One follows the rules, and the other often doesn’t even think there are rules. The difference there isn’t hard to suss out. It’s like that joke about playing chess with a pigeon.
I want a guy who doesn’t think there are rules, and will protect ponies. Why isn’t that a possibility
Because not thinking there are rules into adulthood is a pretty self-absorbed trait, which usually doesn’t go along with things like empathy and compassion.
There aren’t rules. Trump is proof of that
A socialist with that same attitude towards rules, norms, and civility would be the ideal option. That isn’t possible under our system. However, a fascist with those views is possible.
And the neoliberal erosion of living standards will just make the fascists more appealing to normal people. So if the fascists don’t win in 2024 then they’ll win in the near future unless we have a massive expansion of the welfare state that helps median Americans, not just the incredibly poor
You literally can’t try something different, in this election. It’s physically impossible. Leftists should be channeling this energy to the next election, and building a viable candidate that truly meets their needs.
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Don’t worry, tankies love Russia’s Legitimate Security Interests in performing genocide in Ukraine.
One literally hopped on a sock-puppet account immediately after I reported their other account for spam (several replies to each comment) and blocking his account and just continued with the same nonsense.
Commie! They’re kind of adorable, how they think their extraordinarily unique commenting style can be obfuscated by switching usernames and instances. I’ve never seen someone try so hard to have the worst possible takes on everything
Lmao they downvoted this with both of their accounts
haha I’m glad I’m not the only one who recognized Commie doing this.
please, call me commie. i’m anticapitalist.
they think their extraordinarily unique commenting style can be obfuscated by switching usernames and instances
what makes you think that?
you’re paranoid. i didn’t find it til just now. but it’s adorable you think i have TWO accounts. i took an inventory earlier and i’m over 50.
Commie! I missed arguing with you!
what makes you think that?
The fact that before interacting with you, I’d never before interacted with someone who makes separate replies for every single sentence in a comment. Also the fact that you use a similar style of writing across all your various accounts (lack of capitalization is the most apparent example in this thread)
but it’s adorable you think i have TWO accounts. i took an inventory earlier and i’m over 50.
Wow, that’s an impressive number of accounts. Why do you have those? Evading a lot of bans?
Why do you have those? Evading a lot of bans?
i am only instance wide banned on one instance, but they literally told me to just make a new account.
but the reason i accumulate accounts is because federation is still spotty, and it’s helpful to have accounts on any instance that i might want to force content to populate on, or which is not itself defederated from some other instance.
there are lots of good reasons to have multiple accounts, you know.
The fact that before interacting with you, I’d never before i…
nonono. i’m asking what makes you think that i think i’m obfuscating anything?
I’m not a prescriptivist, but my definition of “obfuscate” aligns with google here: to obfuscate means to render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible. By using different usernames on different instances, you are trying to render unclear the fact that you’re actually just one user.
One for each voice in your head, is that right?
i told a friend earlier that i am thinking about changing my name to sybil
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i’m not a tankie and i never told you i’m voting for a so-called third party (though i am)
We know. We can smell your bad faith arguments a mile away.
your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith
Yoink thanks
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Sweet jesus i love it
“Anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie.” The left loves their cringe labels as much as the extreme right. Tankies, fascists, nazis, demon rats, librules, alt right, control left, it’s all the same nonsense. You morons deserve each other.
I’ll take strawman for 500, Alex.
… Or, you know, they just told me they were, ya genius.
don’t lie
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It’s not “considered” throwing your vote away. Under a FPTP voting system, it is throwing your vote away. Nobody who tells you that says it gleefully like we just love that we and you can’t vote third party effectively. It’s just the mathematical reality of our voting system and it has to be changed before voting third party becomes an option that is anything but symbolic and self-defeating.
The DNC is not the ephemereal vague boogeyman the left tries to make it out to be. It’s an organization focused on winning elections and accomplishing policies for the Democratic constituency. You are making the mistake of hating the player instead of the game.
If third party votes are important to you, join a local political group focused on expanding another voting choice method like Ranked Choice or STAR voting. You’re already on the easier half of the ideological spectrum to wage this fight from, since most sponsors of alternatives are from democratic groups.
The players decide the game rules.
I would say that the DNC learned that they can keep doing what they are doing and it will be okay. If they’re lucky, they get Obama. If they’re unlucky, they get Trump, and it’s easier to drum up support for Biden.
He’s both a symptom and an illness.
I think people who are young enough to not remember the world before Obama don’t realize this is so so so so so far from the norm that we don’t have any clue what’s going to happen.
Biden would have been a decent GOP candidate in the 90s. It’d have sucked to see him elected but it would have been a few years of uncomfortable conservative stuff. Where people argue about how much power we want to give to corporations or whatever… But now it’s so far past that…
Tell me which democrats before Trump’s term was “ignoring their constituents for business interests” - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can’t understand how bad trump was and will be, you’re fucking retarded. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the “hard R” without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there’s still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we’ve had in decades. You know what? I think you’re part of the problem. I think you don’t know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you’re just “looking at both sides, man”.
Sorry if that’s a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I’ll try to make it easier: if you’re a Democrat, vote Biden. If you’re not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don’t like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you’re unsure (then you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you’re a Trump supporter I’ll pray for you but vote Trump. If you’re a Republican and don’t like Trump, I’m so sorry.
Don’t get so shocked when someone points out that the Washington establishment shares a lot of common values. I think we all know that intuitively, and yet here you are cussing people out because they pointed it out yet again.
You want some issues that show how Obama failed, how Biden has failed? Okay. Campaign finance reform, housing, strict anti-monopoly legislation, stopping wars.
The biggest thing in your rant that you got totally wrong is that you talked about both sides as if there are only two sides. In reality everyone has their own agenda, but if you get stuck in that trap where you think there’s only two people that you could possibly support it’s easy to forget that neither of them cares about most of the things that you hold dear.
I get the feeling that a lot of these people think that somehow withholding their vote to punish Biden is some kind of ultimate punishment and it allows them to feel superior without having to do anything else to actually contribute.
It gives them another 4 years of absolving themselves of any bad things that happen in the government. “Not my fault”
Same smug cowardice that libertarians love to preen over.
Its tactical. The right is in distress bc theyre so damn unpopular and their base is shrinking while the left is growing. So, for our enemies, its time to turn us against each other and convince us “voting bad.” Bc low turn out is the only way they win. And they say, “but itll keep happening,” except, it wont. Bc theyre in distress. Bc theres less and less boomers to vote for shit. So now, on the eve of tides turning, “wah! Itll always be this way! Give up, dont vote! The right will eventually win!”
Yeah. Tell people that voting for Biden is a vote for the removal of MAGA from politics.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why someone who says they won’t vote for Biden shouldn’t be actively voting for Trump.
They’re the same thing… Like, on every level.
Nah the shit im seeing is more thay theyre the same thing so either dont vote bc fuck the system (and get full blown dictatorship, which the amerikiddies have never actually felt or heard first hand about to distinguish from authoritarian-lite biden) or dont vote/vote third party to push biden and the democrats left (which wont work in trump’s murica where the slightest political deviation will be criminalized). Or they want fascism to speed along the revolution they claim to want. Bc thats going great in russia -___-
I think genocide is bad and that Build Back Better was always going to be killed by the Democratic Party from the very start
He is a C+ president at absolute best.
Which makes him the best president since LBJ
Which means we need to dispose of our current political and civic order and replace it with a better model.
Even something like Finland would be a drastic improve
The foreseeable future looks like the rightwingers are outnumbered. Keep democracy alive, and you will live to see very different candidates running than the dinosaurs your used to. Theres more than a couple reasons why the 2 front runners are do old.
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Edit: I change my mind. After seeing Bidens debate performance it is pretty obvious that he is going to lose. Unless if the Democrats replace Biden with a candidate who can actually speak. I will be voting for Jill Stein instead.
Edit 2: Turns out Biden dropped out. I will now vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but after this election I will be voting 3rd party from now on.
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If Trump wins he’ll continue to support genocide even harder in Gaza since he’s a Christian death cultist
Yeah, that’s the crazy part. I get the voting undecided or whatever your state’s equivalent is in order to send a message to Biden that he needs to change his policies (I’ll be doing this as well when it’s my state’s turn). However, Trump and the right are very openly pro Israel and if anything support Israel even more.
Not to mention that if Trump is back in power he’ll also be supporting the genocide in Ukraine.
And russia has repeatedly said Ukraine is a stepping stone in the “denazification” of Eastern Europe.
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It’s not at all hyperbole. Survivors of the holocaust during Trump’s first term specifically brought up how eerie and terrifying was the similarity with what they lived through during the early years, in the long run-up to the full Nazi takeover.
Biden and the neoliberals represent everything that gave rise to the material conditions that spawned the growth of Nazi Germany
Neoliberalism will continue to spawn fascism until we do away with it. Unfortunately our oligarchs will not prevent that. Which means that fascism is an inevitability in the United States - if not in 2024 then shortly thereafter
Incrementalism and neoliberalism will kill us, and there’s nothing we can do to stop it
You know a socialist came within like 20 feet of the Democratic nomination in 2016 and probably would have won the general, right
A lot of people trying to organize to improve their situation in much harder conditions would call you a coward and quitter for just throwing your hands up in this absolutely abject surrender. You’re still free, you can speak your mind on Lemmy, you can vote or organize. That’s already like 5 big steps up. Just whining about it like “boo hoo all the neoliberals in power won’t just hand it over to me even though I asked them to” is some fuckin weak sauce.
I actually don’t agree that Biden’s economic policies are of a piece with all the neoliberal Democratic-party bullshit that’s been on offer ever since Reagan took down Jimmy Carter’s solar panels. But that’s neither here nor there; the main point is your rampant defeatism is a bunch of conveniently-means-I-don’t-have-to-do-anything crap.
Bernie is a social democrat. If he’s socialist then Scandinavia is socialist. And Scandinavia is obviously not socialist
boo hoo all the neoliberals in power won’t just hand it over to me even though I asked them to" is some fuckin weak sauce.
They wouldn’t hand it over even if there was full blown revolution with nationwide riots and murders. Nor should they - they have far more power than the people, and our military and police are indoctrinated and impossibly heavily armed
I agree that Biden is the best president since LBJ. Gazans might not agree with that evaluation. But I probably do.
Freedom of speech is an illusion that is rapidly shrinking under our current society. It is at best effectless, and at worst a means for the government to engage in gathering intelligence and surveilling certain individuals to build files for future retaliation
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If both parties are the same on Israel, then look for other differences to vote for.
Eh, that’s not exactly how that works. There are single issue voters. If neither side appeals to them they will likely either not vote or seek a third party candidate. That is why the Green party had any sort of relevance until the Dems started really taking climate issues more seriously with things like “the green new deal”.
That is exactly how your system works. It’s a 2 party system in practice. So you might as well work with what you got. It definitely needs an overhaul though. I’m glad all votes matter where I am from.
Those folks just don’t understand game theory.
Both parties are the same on this one issue
well then think of other differences besides that issue
WhY wOuLd YoU sAy ThAt
That’s not at all what I said. There are people who are strictly single issue because that one issue matters more to them than anything else. Telling them to look at other issues doesn’t solve their problem. They’re more likely to look at other candidates.
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Yikes
Edit I’m bummed mods removed user buzz’s comment. They are a bigot and that should be reflected in the public record (not just the federated modlog.) Or, they should be banned.
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U buzz?
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
Leftists who won’t vote are saying:
“Making a political statement is worth not only having Trump for president for the next four years, but living under a Trump for the rest of my life or fighting another world war to escape it.”
“I’m so mad at the current president for doing genocide that I’m going to stand down and tacitly support his other opponent to do genocide instead.”
Please vote. I don’t live in the US but this election is likely to impact the safety of my family.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
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Why would this surprise you? Democrats are center right politically, they’re just as happy to flirt with authoritarianism when it suits them.
Anarchists hate tankies. Tankies hate liberals. Liberals hate anarchists. Meanwhile, Trump, fascism, and Project 2025 is on the horizon. Reach across the divide. When the fascists come for you, are you really gonna ask if the people willing to fight with you are Leninists, Trotskyist, or social Democrats?
We can criticize ideals, but at the end of the day, we’re all fighting fascism.
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It’s not Kool aid, it’s an understanding of reality. There’s no chance of running a third party or another democrat in this month of this year in this election .
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump, who will never be convinced of anything, will happily build an actual Christian nation-state and is likely compromised by foreign actors .
After the election, hoping Biden wins, is the time for leftists to wake up and build a candidate. If trump wins they may never get the chance due to project 2025.
It’s like this:
The floor is covered in broken glass. You must cross it to get out.
You are wearing very uncomfortable high heel shoes.
You can either remove the uncomfortable shoes and walk in the broken glass, taking massive damage. Your feet will never be the same.
Or you can wear the uncomfortable shoes, safely cross the room, and then stop once you are out, and either remove the shoes and find new ones.
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump
i am not fine with biden or trump.
That’s fine, but you are in a game. You have 2 choices. Your actions influence ONLY the possible success of one of those two names.
i’m going to be voting for cornel west or jill stein (or de la cruz if someone can convince me). but i won’t be voting for fascists.
And depending on your county/state, your vote will do nothing, or help trump. Enjoy.
my vote will add one to the vote total of the candidate for whom i vote. unless that person is trump (it won’t be), then i am voting against trump.
Another non-voting/third party stan cosplaying as a leftist.
If im to take ur comic in good faith, ill make like the Spanish anarchists and still participate in the god awful system that we’re all apart of either way to reduce the harm it does to me or my comrades. Surely you will recognize that as praxis.
What does hate achieve?
Men build too many walls and not enough bridges.
Joseph Fort Newton
I like this one! In your honor, and i suppose JF Newton’s, ill paste what i wrote elsewhere as i see it as pertinent.
Youve offered no concrete ways forward, however, so Ill say for the millionth time the same: pursue direct action in any means by which u are able, establish systems of mutual aid (preferably very local), vote bc its the least u can do and your wellbeing does depend on it, and make friends and spread these ideas anywhere and everywhere. The future is ours, but we shouldnt sit here arguing against ppl encouraging any single one of those avenues. Theyre all necessary. Everyone does a little, some do a lot. “From each according to his ability,” and what not.
Weve argued time and time again. If u are a good faith actor, there is nothing here that u should disagree with. All avenues must be taken, none should be disparaged. Everyone does what they can, but some do a little more. Those that do more get honor and respect from the rest, as is deserved, but the rest get neither honor, nor dishonor, but they still receive respect as ur comrades.
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But both sides
Yes my butt is symmetrical with buttcheeks on both aides.
#ButtBothSides
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US “democracy.”
I can’t even tell whether to complain that it’s weird to tell me I can’t defend democracy, or that it’s weird to call “it’s bad to let the Nazis come to power” a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it’s safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I’m gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
“Not supporting the rise of Hitler is literally fascism. After Hitler, our turn!”
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
There are those that see things drifting away from their priorities and their wants and needs. They’ve tried working within the system, but the system always makes things worse. Of course people like that will be tempted to “burn it all down” and start anew, or at least throw a wrench in the cogs and stop progress.
We should focus on convincing them that ‘progress’ is better for them - and if it isn’t, maybe we shouldn’t support it as well. Unless it is an issue of justice, then of course not letting people ‘get away with it’ is worse for those people.
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