Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.
Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages… thats all i would accept. Nothing less.
A ‘Treaty of Versailles’ type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be ‘fair’, seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).
The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.
I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn’t consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.
Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.
Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.
This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It’s not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.
Yep. The only way to make progress on that front is to serve Putin some polonium tea…
That won’t work, it’s not just Putin doing this alone you know. You’d need a powerful (the most powerful, actually) faction inside the Russian state apparatus that want to just give up, and there’s no real reason to think there is such a group. And no anti-war opposition has enough support to do a coup or win elections.
No defeatist is getting into power. It’s not going to happen unless Lenin rises from the dead.
I bet if they had a real option, they’d love to stop sending their kids to die.
Saying as much now gets you thrown in jail.
Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn’t dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we’re stuck with this crony bullshit.
| Socialism worked in Russia:
Bullshit. Prosperity advanced much more in the west than in the Soviet Union, or anywhere in the soviet bloc. Corruption was rampant. Lying was rampant. People were miserable. Cultural genocide was the name of the game. Subjugated people hated it, and have fared significantly better since getting out. The only people who seem to be nostalgic about the USSR is the Russians, because they lost the ability to benefit from the slave labor of conquered vassal states.
In what universe have corruption and lying not been rampant in “the west” over the last hundred years? Did you just pull this comment out of a book titled “Red Scare Propaganda?”
Lol. Nice whataboutism. The USSR literally collapsed due to corruption.
It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country. The point is that that former semi-feudal peasant economy rose rapidly to become at least a perceived competitor to the west, even with the most destructive war ever waged on a large part of its most fertile and productive land.
Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR. People are and were miserable in the west too, cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too. Comparing like for like, socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialise, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
| It shouldn’t be surprising that prosperity advanced much more in the already advanced and industrialised west than in a former semi-feudal peasant economy country.
If the Russians wanted to industrialize, then good for them. But they did it off the back of the slave labor of other countries obtained through violent conquest.
Many European countries were decimated in the aftermath of WWII, not just Russia. West Germany, case in point. The West Germans had it significantly better than the East Germans under socialism. France had it better than Poland under socialism. etc… Socialism made peoples lives miserable.
To whit: 85% of Poles think positively of the change to a multiparty system and market economy. 85% and 83% (respectively) of East Germans. 82% and 76% of Czechs. 70% and 69% of Lithuanians. 74% and 71% of Slovaks. The only people who see it as a negative are the Russians. Go figure.
| Also, corruption and lying? That isn’t specific to the USSR.
True, but I never claimed it was. It’s about degree. I’ve heard first hand stories from former soviet residents of how the only way to get a doctor to treat you with anything more than an asprin was to bribe them. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption. The idea that that sort of corruption existed in the west at the same time is laughable.
| People are and were miserable in the west too.
Claiming that there are some miserable people in the west misses the point. There are miserable people everywhere, but what % of the population are they?
Research (you know, data), shows that people in South Eastern Europe, Central Eastern Europe and the Baltic states are significantly happier than they were at the fall of the USSR. The only region where this is not true for all countries in the region is the former CIS, which surprise, surprise, includes Russia.
| cultural genocide was and is happening in the west too
Where? Show me a country in the west where your mother tongue is banned? Show me a country in the west where you can be sent to prison for practicing your cultural rituals (assuming you aren’t hurting others ofc)? Don’t compare the mixing of cultures due to increased levels of mobility and the internet to Russiafication, because that’s bullshit.
| socialism worked well for the USSR. It was able to heavily industrialize, house populations, create a space program and compete with the USA on the international stage.
Socialism worked well for a small number of people and only compared to the rest of the soviet bloc. Gorbechev ordered his motorcade to stop at some random small supermarket in the USA to see what it was really like and was initially convinced it was some elaborate CIA setup because he couldn’t believe that the average American had access to a wider range of high quality produce than the party elite in the USSR. American’s weren’t special in that regard. Everyone in the west had the same. Occupied countries would have been just fine with industrialization and housing their populations. All the USSR did from your list was create a space program which did almost nothing for the average person of the USSR, and it was so inept that Vladimir Komarov insisted on an open-casket funeral to force the point.
Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
| Ok, so the West Germans and France, who received economic aid from the US who wasn’t ravaged by war, fared better economically than those countries being supported by the Nazi devastated USSR.
You seem to have forgotten that the point that I am disputing is that socialism worked in the USSR. The USSR was offered aid (the Marshall Plan) but refused it. That’s on socialism.
The simple truth is that the USSR failed its citizens. Non-russian slave nations would have been much better off being autonomous and free to pursue their own ideals and prosperity. Ethnic Russians…well who knows. It’s a messed up culture and that’s hard to break free from, but you could imagine a timeline where they dumped the idea that grinding others under your boot heel was the way to success.
| I’ve heard first hand accounts from people from the west who talk about the only way to avoid disproportionate targeting by police and other state actors was to be not black or other minority. Not to mention the institutionalised corruption of over the top corporate lobbying. That’s an absolutely fucked level of corruption too.
This is whataboutism and actually supports my point. Which was, again, was that socialism did not work in the USSR. If the west had all that ‘fucked up level of corruption too’, then it still out-performed socialism on pretty much all metrics. But regardless, selecting a disadvantaged minority in one country and then trying to create a false equivalence to the majority in the USSR is exactly that, a false equivalence.
| Of course people are happier now than at the fall of the USSR. The collapse of a nation has a massive and in this case negative instant impact on people’s lives. The fact that things if gone up from there is not surprising.
Oh, they were unhappy then! I have family who lived through it, and they HATED being part of the USSR. It was a miserable time of poverty, fear and suffering for them. The USSR was an authoritarian, totalitarian, one-party, state that had Orwellian propaganda, a cult of personality and in which the Russian ethic group had an overbearing sense of racial superiority. The state also carried out repression, torture and purges on scales that were genocidal. All of these traits are common with fascism, but the Russians claim to be anti-fascist. It’s odd.
Non-russians much prefer being free and out from the Russian fascist boot heel.
| Black people and Native Americans are still dealing with past and current displacement and discrimination, including a push to eliminate their culture and language. Canada is currently dealing with the results of their very recent genocidal attempts on their First Nations people.
I never claimed that other countries were perfect, I just did a comparison and found the USSR to be severely wanting in terms of whether it worked. I think it’s a good thing that First Nations people are finally getting their language, culture and rights recognised and respected. Maybe Russia could contemplate doing the same and leaving the Ukrainians alone; as opposed to, for example, the Russian man who recently THREW A 10 YEAR OLD UKRAINIAN CHILD OFF A BRIDGE for speaking Ukrainian in Germany.
| That 'only a small number of people’s argument really doesn’t wash when you factor in the alternative that is capitalism. The very system that is increasing inequality faster and faster since the fall of its former main ideological enemy. It’s true that light industry in the Soviet Union was underdeveloped, people didn’t have as much choice in things like food products or consumer goods, but they were building from a completely different set of conditions. The ability of the west to produce so much that then gets wasted while still having starving, homeless, and undereducated people living in it is not a ringing endorsement of the system.
I’m not claiming capitalism is perfect, far from it and I think the USA goes too way far the other way. But the point (again!) is that Socialism did not work in the USSR. People suffered, literally starved by the millions, and did not have autonomy, the freedom to speak either their language or their thoughts. People were abducted by the state never to be seen or heard of again, connections to community and land were broken, and countries other than russia were worse off than if they had been free to pursue their own path under a democratically elected government.
If you want to see a state where socialism has worked, look at Norway, not Russia.
China’s also showing the problem of that. The state control is too susceptible to corruption. That’s how they have a whole industry if fake construction, fake goods etc… And why they’re on the brink of a massive Construction bond related crash.
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Is the “commie” in the room with you now? This is an unhinged level of angrv to get over a really quite tame comment.
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Ukraine itself is not a “genuinely pluralistic democracy” despite appearances, it’s almost as corrupt and authoritarian as Russia.
It’s not the case where only Russia has to become more democratic cause democracies usually don’t fight each other.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally. It won’t recover its ability to attack anyone anytime soon, and when it will, the process of recovery itself is going to naturally ensure that it’s not interested in attacking Ukraine.
So yes, you are right about oligarchs and the general structure of the societies.
Essential assets you are talking about are what exactly? If you mean factories and plants, then actual equipment in most of them was obsolete even in 1991, and through the 90s and 00s has mostly been scrapped.
There are some remaining and even functioning, yes, but whether state ownership is going to prevent those from slowly crumbling due to growing obsolescence, irrelevance and lack of expertise, I’m not sure.
Basically industrial capacities are something to be created from scratch mostly.
But for Russia to stop being a threat it’s sufficient to just lose this war finally
What would be the definition of “losing” in this case? Countries tend use all the weapons at their disposal in order not to “lose”, in the case of Russia that would include its nuclear arsenal.
Sounds like a better outcome for everyone would be for Russia to get a civil war, and just “forget” about Ukraine.
All weapons which make sense for Russia’s leadership. Nukes are not that, they want to still rule over something when this ends.
Chemical weapons are possible, I think.
If we go far enough up the command chain, there are fallout shelters and
slavessubordinates to rule over.But you’re right, chemical and biological are likely lower on the “let’s fuck every treaty” scale.
I suspect they are getting second thoughts there about those fallout shelters and how different they are from wow hypersonic missiles and wow radioelectronic warfare and other kinds of wow they considered real.
And Russia Surrenders a 10km deep strip of its own land around Ukraine to act as a DMZ.
With what military do you plan on using to support this?
And a 3rd party enforced DMZ on the border.
Losing thousands (possibly tens or hundreds of thousands) more soldiers forcing that.
Playing macho may seem cool from your chair, but if Ukraine could force that without significant losses, it would already have by now.
Their behavior also shows that they don’t see their victory as that close and certain. Even though the statement itself is by a stronger side definitely, unlike in the first few months since the war started.
Eastern European countries love their “macho” leaders. Putin has been doing the whole shtick since forever and Zelensky started it too since 2022. Fucking hate this shit.
Lots of countries have this problem. Their people are looking for strong leaders, not smart leaders, and many interpret bullying as strength.
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Democratic leadership hasn’t really done much for Ukraine. The Russians still have Bakhmut (their big gain from last winter). Almost the entirety of the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been dedicated to an area of land less than twenty kilometers across. Meanwhile, Russian forces are massing North of Kupyansk and Ukrainian supplies are drained.
The West doesn’t seem to really care about Ukraine - while Russia has been able to bring their economy into war footing in about a year, the West is happy to dig around and play accounting tricks to scrounge up what they can. The recent shipment of ATACMS missiles was, well…
“A surprising discovery could also ease the administration’s choice to send the weapons: The U.S. has found it has more ATACMS in its inventory than originally assessed.”
That’s what we’re stuck with? Hundreds of billions of dollars down the drain and aid is only being sent because they miscounted inventory?
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Fast and cheap? Is that what you call losing 60 thousand lives to eke out a salient on low ground?
I said “in some moments”. There were days and places under Kherson a few months before.
Just goes to show you the disparity right? NATO is keeping ukraine in the fight against a country which brought its “economy into war footing in about a year” by sending whatever they find lying around down the back of the couch.
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If only you also were in the position to dictate this to Russia. Even the US isn’t in this position, and will never be.
do you live there
How? Ukraine’s made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.
What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?
Russia’s monetary system is in collapse and its economy is in free fall… the war took up 45% of its budget last year, its foreign exchange reserves have long since run dry and its first defensive line is slowly crumbling.
If it ends up being a war of endurance, Russia’s going to be in a far worse position in a year than they are now.
Russia’s manufacturing PMI is at, what, 55.9 this month? In fact, the Russian Bank is literally worried about higher than expected inflation because their economic output has been too high.
And of course, by slowly crumbling you mean that one salient near Robotyne? The one that’s known to be in a region of low ground surrounded by defences on high ground? That line?
Fact is, so long as India can keep buying Russian oil at whatever price OPEC dictates, Russia can keep financing the war. A lot of Russian industries can function entirely domestically (and thus don’t really stress foreign exchange reserves) - the main limiting factor I’d expect is high-tech electronics coming from India and China. Russia’s war economy has been remarkably resilient given the circumstances.
The reason for those small gains instead of hard ones is largely air support. The fighting on the ground is very reminiscent of world war I. That is not a good thing. They may seem like modest gains but in terms of that type of warfare they are pretty huge gains. The problem is that without air support it is going to be a long hard battle.
All that said, it is Ukraine’s territory. Russia could pack up and leave at any time.
How is Ukraine ever going to get air superiority? The West is basically trickle-feeding then equipment.
Yes, that is exactly what I implied.
Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.
They’ve shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.
I’m literally basing this on bloodthirsty weapon manufacturer adjacent media, who’s interests are unaligned with saying things are going badly. Even they are getting cold feet on the war, or saying there never was an offensive or the offensive hasn’t really started yet.
Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can’t be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini
Russia can’t be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.
While I’d like to believe this, if Putin comes to some peaceful agreement with Ukraine, the international community will just wait until people are distracted by the next big news story and then let Putin back in.
I’d rather be cynical and happily surprised than optimistic and disappointed.
Actually likely not, he’s been building international relations similarly to the Russian criminal code of behavior, and while it’s sad that even Americans and Europeans would consider this kinda acceptable, now he’s shown himself to be weak and humiliated. In other words, of the lower caste, and simply said, a pidor.
So no, he won’t be let back in. But some other (in appearances mostly, not in essence) government in Russia may.
simply said, a pidor.
isn’t that some kind of Turkish pizza?
I tried to look it up, I am only finding that it is a slur used to call people gay when they may or not be. U.S. equivalent seems to be like saying “Suck a dick, fag!” With pidor being the word at the end that would be shunned for being said.
I halted on submitting this over and over because I feel like I am going to get downvoted for using that term even to define a word/usecase. (Then I remembered the points don’t matter and intent changes context)
Well, in Russian it’s a swear word meaning a faggot, which refers to prison hierarchy.
I mean, by that logic we might as well dump everyone who’s started a major land war recently into the ground.
Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan… ah fuck, eh?
Sure let’s do it
Actually tho
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“my genociders are good, your genociders are bad”. Whataboutism at its best. Lovely.
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The ccp is not China.
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Of course. They’re white.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
But that is not a thing. So looks a bit ballsy, cause one would think that in a rather apocalyptic war on Ukraine’s soil, after they’ve reclaimed large swathes of territory, they’d be interested in some reduction of monthly casualties and rebuilding various capacities on that territory. Which a ceasefire would provide.
I mean, even if you are right, you are eagerly advocating for spending mobilized Ukrainian lives on a costly offensive.
what a ceasefire would provide
Like the 2014 ceasefire? All it does is give Russia the opportunity to retrench and dig in. When the Ukrainians ask for a ceasefire, then I’ll support one.
Like every ceasefire.
I suppose right now Ukraine just wants some better guarantees while it has a strong negotiating position.
So that it takes some effort from Putin to even be heard.
Or maybe what Zelensky says is what he means, you can’t negotiate with a pathological liar (just like a few of Ukraine’s allies, though) who doesn’t know how to lose with dignity. Be it a person or a whole elite of some country, like Russia. I mean, emotionally I’ve met some and I’d agree. Just don’t know what it is rationally.
Like every ceasefire.
Probably the reason Ukraine doesn’t want a ceasefire…
I’m only repeating what Ukrainians say. They know any concession with ruzzian terrorists now will only lead to ruzzian terrorists regrouping and reloading to perfom more genocide in a few months/years all over again. The fascist moscow regime needs to be stopped NOW.
The word “genocide” means something else (which, in case of Turkey and China and even Yazidis in Syria, most of the world has problems recognizing).
Yes, but Ukrainians need to regroup too.
Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide. Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Murdering, kidnapping and brainwashing Ukrainian children is genocide.
Then we’ll have to introduce degrees of genocide.
Attempting to exterminate the Ukrainian people is genocide.
Which is not happening.
I block all russian trolls.
You don’t fucking know which things the words you use mean. And since you still dare voice your opinions on real world - blocking me is an important first step at stopping that.
I would understand if at least 20% of the Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel would be comprised of western volunteers talking about terrorists and no negotiations.
Now do Russia. There must be more western volunteers on that side, I take it?
I obviously mean that you are talking too tough for somebody not participating.
Foundations of geopolitics? Fuck that, more war. More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
More Ukrainians will die, and that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
I genuinely can’t tell if you are saying this ironically considering you are all over this thread defending Russia’s invasion.
Slava Ukraini was literally the battle cry of the OUN, which collaborated in the holocaust. Find a different motto.
Wait till you hear about the origins of Volkswagen.
Oh I know. I have a massive ax to grind on how little denazification happened after the war, especially in west Germany.
SLAVA UKRAINI tell your czar putler his time is up. :)
K scratched liberal
.
I block all ruscist trolls. You’re up!
“ahhhhhh splat” is the current warcry of the woefully unprepared orcs getting slaughtered in a war that could end today. maybe you guys could at least come up with something original before winding up as compost?
as expected tankies and brain-dead conservatives take issue with the fact I’m mocking the vatniks out there being converted into soil. guess what? I give as much a shit about you guys as the decomposing corpses of the mobiks, and find your opinions on the topic to be as usual, laughably silly and predictable. no, I’m not gonna have any need to humanise a bunch of trash that are invading another country. do I feel genuine sympathy for the conscripts who have no choice and no possibility to surrender? sure. that’s their lot unfortunatly, but you won’t find me crying over dead Russians in Ukraine
Calling russian soldiers orcs is litteral dehumanisation straight out of the faschists playbook. Can we please collectivly agree in not becoming the strawman putin used in his “justification” for this war?
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lol nope
“Slava Ukraini” is fascists slogan used by, and mainly associated with, the mass murderers of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews. I guess that doesn’t count as terrorism in your worldview.
Shut your face, ruzzian troll
Ah yes, “Glory to Ukraine,” seems like a super specific slogan that can only be associated with one movement. In no way is it a generically nationalist slogan.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
See what they are doing while chanting “Slava Ukraini”? Notice the salutes? That’s the context of this becoming popular in Ukraine (again).
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
ok bye now
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
You might want to specify whether you’re talking about the pre-WWI, post-WWI, WWII, USSR, or post-USSR meaning.
For reference, the current year is 2023.
I already responded to this in a reply to another user:
So it’s perfectly normal to revive a slogan that was last used by fascists? I’m sure the fact that Ukraine also made Bandera a national hero and put up statues of him and named streets in his honor right around the same time that slogan made its comeback is just a coincidence? Totally innocent slogan my ass.
You might be blind in your right eye if you think this isn’t some fascist shit. This is like “the swastika is an old Hindu symbol” type defense, only worse because you’re ignoring the Hitler portrait right next to it.
I’m blind in my left eye, thank you very much… but since we’re copying other comments:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
It’s mainly associated with “Ukrainian Nationalists” since WWI, adoped by the fascist organization which took part in the Holocaust and massacre of Poles, whose members have been granted veteran benefits in 2019, and its emblem is being used by present Ukrainians.
I’m not defending it, and as a Pole I’m definitely suspicious of Ukraine’s true intentions behind the slogan and the emblem… but I’m also pro-EU, and right now it’s better to support Ukraine, than to let Russia think about which EU member state to invade next.
Afterwards, if Ukraine wants to get its shit in order to a level where it could join the EU and NATO… then go ahead. Germany did it, Italy and Spain did it, and we’re all better for that.
Germany and Italy literally did not get rid fascism willingly, they were defeated and this was imposed on them. And being from Germany, I assure you denazification was incredibly half-assed.
Look at it for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
They’re doing the salute and everything. That salute was introduced by the fascist OUN.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/shorts/SlCLSBr9sW0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
FML… that is indeed the fascist salute.
I know de-nazification was half-assed; I lived in Italy, now I live in Spain, and man, 45 years after the fascist regime was “gone”, there are still those opposing the removal of some fascist symbols. They used to argue that “it’s too soon”, now they’re arguing “it’s too late, let them be”, while there are still people killed by the dictature laying unidentified in some ditch or another.
Guess we’ll have to live and see where it all goes.
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I really think “Slava Ukraini” is a fascist slogan, because it is. Since you’re mad at me for pointing it out, I suspect it might be you who would get banned if you said what you really think.
In April 1941 in German-occupied Kraków, the younger part of the OUN seceded and formed its own organisation, called the OUN-B after its leader Stepan Bandera. The group adopted a fascist-style salute along with calling “Glory to Ukraine!” and responding with “Glory to the Heroes!”. During the failed attempt to build a Ukrainian state on lands occupied by Germany after its invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, triumphal arches with “Glory to Ukraine!”, along with other slogans, were erected in numerous Ukrainian cities.
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So it’s perfectly normal to revive a slogan that was last used by fascists? I’m sure the fact that Ukraine also made Bandera a national hero and put up statues of him and named streets in his honor right around the same time that slogan made its comeback is just a coincidence? Totally innocent slogan my ass.
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Have a good day.
Look, you can’t just present an argument and then tell me not to reply.
The history of Ukrainian support of him is fairly new and is far more complicated than “we like fascists”,
I’d like to hear your arguments why worshiping the leader of an organization that took part in the Holocaust is somehow “complicated”. It’s not like this isn’t some well-known fact. Seriously, this is obviously totally fucked. Why would you feel to need to defend this? It’s not, actually, fucking complicated.
hostility so far
And whose fault is that?
No, it’s neither fascist, nor mainly associated with mass murderers to anyone except redfash
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
It’s mainly associated with “Ukrainian Nationalists” since WWI, adoped by the fascist organization which took part in the Holocaust and massacre of Poles, whose members have been granted veteran benefits in 2019, and its emblem is being used by present Ukrainians.
Meanings can change; denying history… is sus.
Nope
Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?
I’m kind of confused why Prigozhin did what he did, even. He knew Putin was going to try to kill him afterwards, I had assumed he had his own play but I guess not.
His entire plan made very little sense. And he’s dead now so clearly whatever he thought he was doing definitely did not work out.
Yeah. I eagerly await whatever book will come out about it in a couple decades.
IIRC, I believe Putin found the family members of the people in his chain of command and threatened with their safety.
It’s pretty weird if Prigozhin didn’t have those people all locked down already, too. He knew the gravity of starting an armed rebellion and he knew as well as anyone how Putin operates.
As far as I recall, I read on a random article that his family was secured, but not the family of his close chain of command or something.
So he just messed up, then. Oops, now you’re dead.
Hasn’t he had pretty good relations with, like, literally all of BRICS?
So good he didn’t even show up there at the last conference in person because of pretty legitimate concerns they’d arrest him? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/putin-remotely-attends-brics-summit-in-south-africa-while-facing-war-crimes-warrant
Oh no! Not international law!
So are you arguing his relationship with BRICS is actually good despite them probably arresting them if he shows up? What would make a bad relationship in your eyes?
Hasn’t Lula already declared Putin is free to enter Brazil regardless of international law and potential sanctions?
We’ll see if he’s still dictator in a year to take advantage of that!
Lula walked this back literally just today btw.
That’s why he went to South Africa in that visit!
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Quite dishonest to equate “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia” with being pro NATO.
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Who cares? Russia sucks. Remember when they were the bad guy in every movie and every American was anti-Russia? What the fuck happened to the GOP that they’re all sucking Russian dick now?
Putin is a wannabe dictator fucking with Europe, America, and Canada with troll farms while invading non-aggressive neighbours and should be crushed.
Please go ahead and tell yourself what it says and why that makes it ok to kill Ukrainian civilians.
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No. Just no. Russia is invading. You can’t, in good faith, blame the invaded for the casualties. The same way you can’t tell a woman that she got beaten because she refused to have sex.
I can understand it’s not a black and white issue, but this is the laziest propaganda imaginable. You want to stop the casualties right now? Russia retreats to their territory at this very moment. It’s that simple. Keep trying to invade the country won’t reduce the casualties. Now you will take your whataboutism card to say it’s your time to do some killing. Or say that US allying with Ukraine and Russia taking my force is basically the same.
You think the invasion is rightful so the deaths are in there fault of the defenders? Happy that Russia reports low civilian death ratio? Fantastic, you have now used the same argument that all other atrocities used. I’ll also oppose the ones you oppose BTW not only the ones that fit my agenda.
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Remind me again what did RAND Corp outline about US agenda against Russia in 2019 documents, or US ex-VP Dick Cheney tell us what NATO’s vision about Russia is (spoiler: balkanisation),
Dunno, but not really necessary to know about it when the statement being challenged is “not wanting Ukraine invaded by Russia”.
how Biden, after pumping $40B into Ukraine, is asking for $60B more from GOP to use Ukraine as a condom to try fuck with Russia till the “last Ukrainian”, causing deaths of both Ukrainians and Russians
Don’t really care about US but isn’t your yearly military spending like 1Trillion? I looked it up and in 2016 the budget was $639.86B, while in 2023 seems to be $797.B, Accounting for inflation from 2016 to 2023 (Core inflation averaged 3.09% per year between 2016 and 2023 (vs all-CPI inflation of 3.52%), for an inflation total of 23.74%.) $639.86B then is $791,76B now, so accouting for inflation This year’s military budget is not higher than the one in 2016. I picked that year because as an outsider I don’t think the US was doing anything special by then, no covid no Ukraining war, nothing. So basically the US is not spending more than usual for the military, and although I think that’s too much in general, blaming the war maybe isn’t the best approach.
It took me 5 mins to find these numbers and do the math.
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Mali. The domain is free.
I thought it was Machine Learning lmao.
So from having had a few exchanges with pro Russian accounts on Lemmy (which seems to be infested with a few very active ones) this is a summary of their arguments:
- “Ukraine is Nazi”
- “Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president”
- “yeah but Bandera and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine killed ethnic Russians”
- “A huge percentage of their population are ethnic Russians, including in government, and they are fine, and were until the Russian invasion. And now it’s Russia that has killed, maimed and raped more ethnic Russians, including civilians, than Ukraine every did or even could. Including their own people thorough incompetence and corruption”.
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “Ukraine is fighting because they are forced to by their colonial masters, the USA and NATO, and Ukrainians will keep dying so long as they keep being armed”
- “Actually > 90% of the population wants to continue fighting for their country back, so what you’re basically saying is you think Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russian enslavement”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
- “NATO and USA are colonialists and this is just more colonialism”
- “Actually both Russia and China are actual, bone fide land empires, with ethnic minorities that are forced to live like colonized people - including doing the fighting for Russia while their families back home live in misery and squalor and Putin’s Mafia collect mansions, private jets and yachts”
- “Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America”
It was an invasion. Invasions are wrong. That should be the beginning and end of the debate.
I mean, there’s usually more to say than just that. I don’t think no discussion is the answer.
I agree, but ignoring who started the war and who is the one actively invading who, while having already occupied territory from a past war, not too long ago, isn’t right either. Doubting the motivations of the agressor with a past in agression is important. And yes, “TheWest”™ does it too, but Ukraine, who revolted their puppet government (as told to me by people I know from there) in 2014 and having been invaded as a result, isn’t really an agressor to other countries.
I’m from northern Spain, we have had our fair share of civil revolts, the sides I support lost, and I would be SO angry with portugal or france if they had militarily intervened. Several international volunteers came to help in several of them, but volunteers != an official invasion.
I honestly feel like several commies hate “TheWest”™, and by proxy anyone that wants to be related to them so they just eat up the “There’s Nazis in power in Ukraine” speech Putin used.
And yeah, context is important, this is what I know about the whole thing, told to me by my partner, whose family lives in Ukraine and lightly searched by me:
There was a revolt in Ukrained around 2013, where they took away the alleged corrupt puppet president that was manipulating elections and funnelling tons of money to Russia. He has to flee the country when people went to his home, and he apparently had a golden toilet. So after that elections were done and another dude was put in power.
They started to de-russiafy some stuff because they were fed up of russia’s influence in a separate sovereign country, and as a result Russia invaded in 2014. They took Crimea, taking the home away from several Crimean Tatars who were originally from there. Ukraine tried to get international help but since “TheWest”™ didn’t want a full scale war against Russia, they kinda forced Ukraine to give up Crimea, since they obviously don’t have enough resources to defend alone.
Zelensky, an actor, made a TV show where he starred as a good professor that suddenly became president, and fought against the big bad of the country, corruption and oligarchs. People were quite happy by the idea he was promoting, and after popular demand he tried for elections, going into power with a huge majority. He started to de-russiafy again and try to gain more economical support of “TheWest”™, which are the countried whom they have most economical relations. He wanted to join both the EU and NATO, and Putin REALLY disliked that, since he felt threatened. Suddenly, war.
This time, “TheWest”™ decided to support Ukraine more heavily for what I’m sure are their personal reasons, but it’s important to see who the aggresor is. That the US made a bridge for Zelensky offering NATO to pressure Russia we don’t know, maybe, but the fact that a sovereign country is forcing another sovereign country against treaties that the second one wants is clear.
From now on, all the new info that I get on the subject is passed through all the before mentioned context, assuming that all info is completely tampered with. All of what I told you was stuff I knew about before this war, so it’s not like it was propaganda, for me.
As an addendum, some of the family members of my partner work for the military (tech job), and told us that there had been issues with russian agents in Donbass with removing the Ukranian passport to people and giving them the russian one, I believe that the military of every country is fed tons of propaganda, so idk about this one.
What do we also know about Russia? There are several indications that they tempered with international elections by creating fake internet movements and promoting disruptive real ones as we have seen with the whole Trump fiasco. If they did so mcuh effort for countries that are that far, I have zero ounces of doubt that the manipulation strategies Russia actively performed pre-war, in a non-NATO coutry, were a lot more aggresive. Again, commies and tankies don’t trust anything about “TheWest”™ so to them all the manipulation reports hold no weight, it’s clear that there is a divide in ideology here around how Russia operates things.
I don’t have any reputable sources to support my context because I can’t bother to search for them, I’m just browsing the web while working like all of us lazy asses, but given this context I have, it’s really hard for me and tons of people living in “TheWest”™ to trust anything Russia says, since they have a really long history of tampering with their neighbouring countries (Yes so does USA but this is about Ukraine and Russia).
Well then discuss.
What justifies the torture, rape, pillage, kidnapping, Russia has inflicted on Ukraine?
Mmmm… nothing. Putin is just an ultranationalist asshole on top of being a kleptocrat asshole.
Hey, I didn’t say the discussion had to be long, and this is a pretty cut and dried case.
Edit: Now, consider for contrast the invasion of neutral Iceland by Britain in WWII.
I take it you had to deal with the Hexbears? Idiots.
Such a worthless use of brain cells. Imagine being the product of billions of years of evolution and becoming that.
I’m sure some are on a payroll. You don’t get a weird narrative like that started without planting a seed.
It’s not a coincidence they look like a better version of 2015 the_donald.
They even mocked me when I said I expected to get banned for saying that… and then banned me. Weird how that works.
Yes, the Russian troll farm pays me to post for the dozen weirdos who actually read this on here. Money well spent!
Makes perfect sense.
Ikr? I wonder what their parents think of them.
They said talking on a Lemmy.world post lmfao
they’re on other instances as well
edit: having to go through posts like these and blocking all the invader apologists isn’t fun, but it beats accidentally reading their drivel again
Didn’t lemmy.ca defed with Hexbear because someone called (in jest) for death to landlords while Canada experiences it’s biggest housing crisis ever and rents are rising rapidly YoY solely because landlords, who otherwise deliver no intrinsic value in their position, found a way to make more money from the increased demand?
No, that wasn’t the reason and if it’s the only one you can think of you have no idea how toxic and disgusting the hexbear community is. I hate landlords too but these people are really taking it so much further than joking about dead landlords.
And, as I recently got downvoted on lemmy.ca for pointing out, it’s not (directly) due to landlords, there’s just not enough houses built, and I can cite sources on that.
That was one of the big reasons made in the post about Hexbear defed.
The other ones were nebulous concerns about Hexbear comments in other instances… Which, by definition, is the responsibility of those other instances.
The idea that you can’t judge anyone by actions not in your personal instance is just such terminally online idiocy. Trolls always seem shocked that their behavior might actually follow them around rather than being conveniently compartmentalized so they can start their trolling fresh before burning out a new instance.
It’s the instance’s responsibility for policing it’s own instance.
And defederation was the action that the instance decided to policy them. If users from that instance take up the majority of their moderation effort, taking into account that instance owners are volunteers and paying for the instance, it does not surprise me.
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There’s a reason Western Europe focuses on the Nazis in the context of the Holocaust: the Nazis never saw the Western Europeans as a stain on the Earth like they did the Jews and the Slavs. Russians don’t need to point to Jews to claim Nazism: they can point directly to the treatment of ethnically Russian Slavs during WW2 and the plans that Nazi Germany had for the eradication of Slavs.
Russia doesn’t need to point at how Ukraine treats Jews because to Russia, the Holocaust is dwarfed in societal impact by the issues that motivated Operation Barbarossa. The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind that minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on. Provinces dominated by minorities get significantly more funding per capita and even get loss-leading infrastructure projects like the Tibet and Xinjiang railways. Students from minorities get additional bonuses on gaokao (basically SAT, but imagine if schools didn’t look at anything else). Minorities are exempt from family planning policies and get massive interest-free loans for starting businesses. They get proportional representation in government. Hell, there are 55 minority groups in China making up 8% of the population.
In the army? The prevalence of rural populations in the army has been observed AROUND THE WORLD. It’s a function of rural communities being rather poor and underserved by governments in general, as well as the lack of economic opportunities that living on a farm provides. In fact, the entire notion of the underserved countryside is what allowed communism to rise in Russia and China.
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Have you ever been to China? Ever talked to a person from a Chinese minority? Clearly not.
By and large their complaints are about a lack of economic opportunity (because, y’know, Inner Mongolia isn’t exactly the most hospitable climate) and that the government affirmative action isn’t enough to address the gap in resources. That’s what you’ll hear on the ground… And that’s an absolutely fair concern.
I have. I’ve known Tibetans personally and I can assure you that they wish China had never invaded their country and taken it over.
Ah yes, because Tibet before the CCP was a bastion of human rights protection. Who do you think you’re convincing?
Still, clearly never been to China 🤷♀️
Well it’s sure as shit not a bastion of human rights after the CCP invasion.
You’ve clearly never met a Tibettan refugee.
Do you understand Tibetan history up to that point? At least it’s no longer a serfdom system (which Tibetan advocates will say was equal because of the one-in-a-million chance that one of the peasants can become the Dalai Lama and that everyone was totally happy because everyone was working towards bettering Buddhism). How many Tibetan refugees do you know who experienced serfdom?
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So… I’ll take that as a no?
No first party sources, no evidence, and probably has never left a NATO country. Truly a well-informed opinion.
The Russians lost 19 million Russian civilians in the war, why would they care about the Jews?
Nevermind the fact that it was Russia itself that treated (and keeps treating) its soldiers as cannon fodder
I’d recommend that you read a more insightful commentary on Red Army practices during WW2 rather than following Nazi propaganda from that period. David Glantz’ work is particularly insightful.
Either way, those are 19 million civilians. That isn’t military dead, that’s civilians.
One thing they always forget to mention is the USSR was allied to Nazi Germany in order to partition Poland.
No doubt the Soviets suffered greatly in WW2, and contributed greatly to the allied victory. On the other hand they did not do it alone, and they certainly did not expect to have to fight the Germans at all, at least not at that point.
So? The Great Powers had decided on a policy of appeasement against Nazi Germany. What exactly would you have proposed the USSR do? They signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact prior to the war for a reason.
Without the Eastern Front, Europe was lost. Hitler only launched Operation Barbarossa because he thought the Western Front was all but won. Continental Europe was under German control and the UBoats were locking down most of the Atlantic, meanwhile imports of Russian materials was sustaining the German war economy (similarly, imports of American materials was sustaining Japan’s war in China and the Pacific)… Of course, it turns out that dividing your forces and taking on Russia in the winter aren’t the best ideas, but at the time Germany wanted energy independence and the Caucasus was seen as an easier target than the Middle East (which at the time out produced Romania but wasn’t yet the oil superpower it is today).
That’s all well and good, but that’s never taught at all to Russians and ignored by tankies.
And if you actually read your dumb narrative, your first paragraph is contradicted by your second. You really need to work on your story.
Here’s the truth: the USSR, like Nazi Germany, was an authoritarian expansionist nightmare that was happy to get Poland for free. They only fight the Nazis because they had to. And Stalin was a shit strategist.
25% ish of the Russian population live in huts and shit in holes in outhouses for a lack of plumbing (mostly ethnic minorities), all while the ruling Mafia collects yachts and private jets, and launches wars.
I’m not saying there isn’t wealth inequality elsewhere, but how about a bit of perspective here. Russia cannot actually conscript too many ethnic Russians or use them as cannon fodder, since that is the only ethnicity in Russia that matters politically, since they are the middle class. Instead they send the colonized people, who happen to be those who shit in holes for a lack of plumbing.
Poor people are overrepresented in the army? No way!
It’s a conscript army. They shouldn’t be.
You say that, but conscription always has exceptions, which usually include having an important job or going to university, which would presumably skew the result towards more poor people in the army. There’s also corruption of course.
Improved infrastructure and better access to education is not the win you think it is. Whether infrastructure and education is good or not depends on what you do with it. If you use your infrastructure to connect unruly provinces to your center of power in an effort to better exert control, then the infrastructure becomes a net-negative for the people on the receiving end. As an example, I’m sure nobody sane enough would claim that the US building the railroad was positive for native americans. Likewise, if you use your education to indoctrinate people, then better educational opportunities go hand in hand with increased oppression.
So… You’d rather people be poor and uneducated than wealthy and educated? Huh?
I didn’t say that at all. What I did say is that you shouldn’t take China providing infrastructure and education as a purely philantrophic endeavour.
improved infrastructure and better access to education is not the win you think it is
What exactly do you think you’re saying? That infrastructure and education are bad?
minorities in China get so many advantages it’s actually silly how much affirmative action goes on
You claim China is engaging in affirmative action to strengthen its minorities. I’m pointing out that the actions China is taking can just as easily be turned against the minorities you claim are helped by China.
The actions such as… Giving them additional points on gaokao? Interest free business loans? Exemption from family planning policy? The horror.
“whatabout America” - “nooo you can’t just call me out on hypocrisy, it makes me look bad”
Whataboutism is literally a logical fallacy. We are talking about Russia, so talk about Russia.
Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy. There are historical, political, social, and economic reasons things happen, and sometimes it pays to put things in context. Limiting the discussion to the thing happening NOW and only NOW doesn’t allow for a better understanding of the events.
Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist. You can see based on past events such as the war on terror and endless drone striking of civilians how governments could expect that to be the standard way of operating. That doesn’t make it right, only that military intervention has been and continues to be legitimised politically by the international community.
Dismissing something for being a fallacy is also a fallacy
Lol
Also, someone pointing out hypocrisy of other nations shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing, especially if it’s pointing out the hypocrisy of the most powerful and influential nation to ever exist.
I didn’t realize Ukraine was the most powerful nation to ever exist.
Bruh are you being willfully ignorant about that last point or do you legitimately believe I was saying Ukraine is the most powerful nation to ever exist?
You are implying that this war is somehow orchestrated by the United States, since you are whatabouting that way.
The United States is not a belligerent here. Ukraine is the one getting invaded, and Russia is doing the invading - that is the situation. Every time you whatabout to the US you imply that Ukrainians have no agency and no rights to decide for themselves or defend themselves, or are somehow under the control of Joe Biden or some shit (hint: they aren’t - polling in Ukraine is very clear that a large majority want to keep fighting until Russia is gone from their country).
So yeah, “bruh”, I’m pointing out that when we talk about Russia and Ukraine, let’s talk about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to talk about the wider geostrategic implications of the USA, Europe, NATO, and various other nations providing aid to Ukraine, let’s dance:
I suppose your moral grounds aren’t shaken by Russia seeking help in North Korea and Iran to continue killing Ukrainian civilians? That is an actual whatabout.
Or perhaps that NATO and the EU are voluntary alliances that nations are free to leave at any moment (and don’t want in the case of NATO because of Russian aggression). Very nice, “bruh”.
You trolls are so predictable.
The person you replied to, saying whataboutism is a literal fallacy, brought up the fact that whenever anyone criticises the US in relation to current events it gets dismissed as whataboutism. I was making a point that hypocrisy in regards to the US, which is the most powerful nation in the world, helps no one, and only hinders the ability for governments to operate.
I’m not saying Ukrainians have no agency, although they are indebted to the west now, I am saying that the US is using Ukraine and spinning it as a moral good. The fact that it aligns with what the Ukrainian government wants is not necessary.
I don’t support killing civilians. I don’t support killing conscripted people. I don’t support killing volunteers who joined because they were struggling in a system that is designed to entice the poor to fight. I don’t even support killing those who joined because their mind is warped to hyper patriotism by propaganda due to the system they live in. I would rather see peace talks, collaboration in demining and rebuilding, and genuine interest in what the people of the region want. That Russia is seeking support is not surprising seeing the west supporting Ukraine, that doesn’t make it right, that just makes it predictable.
You have no right to judge someone for what you yourself are guilty of.
guess we are all fucked then, all world powers are guilty of vile shit
What are they guilty of?
Hawkish imperialism, I guess.
(to be very explicit, I have no love for either)
That all sounds like brigading emotional nonsense. In fact, there were strong reasons for Russia to invade. It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine. It’s a shame none of the people you talked to were able to argue the issues sensibly.
Lol Ukraine strategically decided not to surrender their territory, thus manipulating the peaceful Russians to invade
Why should Russia strategically be required to invade exactly?
I’ve never heard a cogent argument on this point.
It’s because Russia sees NATO as a threat and wants to take control of Ukraine to keep buffer states on the west side. Also, to keep it’sblack sea fleet safe. Why it happened now and not sooner or later - nobody knows. The official reasoning, of course, is bullshit, just like with any other war. Not the worst one, though.
Most people haven’t. We all have a filter bubble.
Here is a first draft, my attempt to provide the missing context. Please leave comments on anything bad or missing you notice. https://lemmy.ml/post/4848742
That is just a list of Russian propaganda points. There is no evidence for any of it.
Well here is your chance. Argue this issues sensibly.
Probably the tired line of NATO expansion fears. How’d that work out? Does Russia have more or less NATO countries near their borders? The invasion itself is the best sales pitch NATO could ever need.
It is probably true that Russia was manipulated into invading, it had no choice because of strategic decisions made by Ukraine.
Of course Russia had a choice. Not invading a country is the easiest thing to do. I do it every day, and I have nowhere near the power and resources that Vlad Putin does.
I mean look, it’s a nation we talked in to giving up it’s nuclear weapons in exchange for protection and recognition by us. We really had no choice but to invade.
Very true. Russia (well, putin) has shown over and over that he can’t be trusted, he will stab you in the back and he will murder you.
Hell, the entire land grab from Ukraine was going against accords made where Russia promised to allow Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation and Russia would get all their nukes. Russia got the nukes and theb went on to invade and steal Crimea and then to just drop all pretence and invade the entire Ukraine.
Just give some shitty transparent excuses, mumble something about non existent Nazis, and just steal lands.
So no, you can’t make deals with Putin
However, Ukraine is in a tight spot. They still rely on the west (and mostly United States)for the Weapons and gear they use on the war. Russia has the Republican party in their pocket and if the Republican party (or worse trump) wins the election, they’ll at the least stop all Help and likely hand the Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter.
This means they basically gotta gain as much as possible before the US elections, which is why they’re grinding on so much without the proper air support they’ll start having at the end of the year. It sucks, but it’s the situation they’re in.
It’s impressive though to see how much they advance without air support. Slava Ukraine!
His plane “crashed”? You mean after it was shot with AA missiles right?
No no, that was before crash.
Yeah exactly - let’s not get things twisted here. The being blown out of the sky by AA and the crash are 2 entirely separate situations involving the same plane that happened close together, that’s all. Yep.
Jesus the fucking ignorance here.
It’s pretty damn clear at this point it was a bomb on board.
No one is saying Putin didn’t do it. Just that the evidence is that whomever did do it, did it with a bomb.
It was not shot down, here is a short video with a detailed explanation on why the most likely thing that happened was a bomb onboard.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/rCUTsO6bOSo?si=fl_UixmPEqsMNI3I
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
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A wing an the tail fell of… chance in a million /s
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/rCUTsO6bOSo?si=5or7ZnDf1hur-f2w
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Ironically the CIA believes Putin killed Prigozhin to defuse tensions with NATO for exiling Wagner to Belarus.
If Putin wants to defuse tensions with NATO, he knows what to do.
Retreat from Ukraine, then fall out of a window.
Right, pullout, like Putin’s daddy should have done.
I’m skeptical the government would allow him to do that.
He’s not actually a god-king. If a leader ever became a threat to the power structure, he’d be eliminated. Just ask JFK 🙃
I don’t think you can compare those situations. Putin has had everyone fall out the window that was a threat to his power. Or accidentally get himself stabbed with poison by a Russian agent. Or pour themselves poisoned tea definitely nobody else poisoned.
In the west we say Putin, like he’s some sorta boogieman. In the US our politicians are essentially puppets with some corporation’s hand up their ass. Yes, Putin has been in power for years; that doesn’t mean he isn’t in power because he keeps the oligarch’s money flowing. The second the money flow comes into question, someone falls from a window.
Now I’m not saying Putin isn’t the one ordering the hits - he could be and also potentially couldn’t be. What I am saying is that there are often multiple versions of the truth and/or layers to that truth.
I think Zelenskyy is right, don’t make deals with the devil. But there’s a 100% certainty that this isn’t only “Putin’s War” and there are more players, potentially those with their hand deep in Putin’s ass, pulling his puppet-strings
You think Putin is the one personally pushing people out of windows?
This is bigger than he is - he’s a figurehead of a power bloc within the government, he isn’t god.
Since when do leaders have to personally execute every command? He surrounded himself with yes men for decades.
Just ignore that obvious shill. The other day they were denying the importance of education to combat propaganda. It’s obvious where their loyalties lie.
Did Putin conquer Russia all by himself?
The idea that he’s some kind of lonely tyrant and accountable to no-one really implies that he actually is a god, like he somehow managed to take over the largest country on Earth and rule it with an iron fist and there wasn’t anyone else that helped him get there or helps him stay there (and could help him “retire” if he ever became a problem)
I’ve never said he alone is responsible for everything. For example, he has loads of assholes trying to defend him online.
Good night.
Putin is, for all intents and purposes, an absolute ruler. He’s a lot closer to being the “god-king” of Russia than you appear to think.
Absolute rulers don’t actually exist. That’s fantasy stuff for kids books.
Even under feudalism and in ancient empires the leader wasn’t actually like that, they could always go too far and be replaced (with lots of violence of course)
A day earlier, Prigozhin published a video purportedly from Africa. Next day, he managed to get himself killed on a flight from Moscow. While being exiled.
Not sure what the CIA believes, but it’s all sus AF.
It was a flight from St Petersburg to Moscow, but yes why he was allowed in the country after being exiled shows that in Russia their rules aren’t cut and dry.
From Moscow: https://www.reuters.com/graphics/RUSSIAN-CRASH/PRIGOZHIN/dwvkaealmvm/
There were two jets though, the other one did the roundtrip fine.
Ahh, apologies I thought it was St P to Moscow, I was wrong.
I mean, obviously?
But that would counter Zelensky’s argument.
You mean Zelensky was wrong? No way!
Facts
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.
The Wagner leader’s dramatic death, which followed a short-lived rebellion that threatened the authority of the Russian president, was a warning to be heeded, Zelensky suggested.
While the United States and other key Ukrainian allies continue to supply weapons to Kyiv, and stress that conditions to pursue a “just and durable” peace are not yet in place, a handful of world leaders, such as Brazil’s Lula Da Silva, have put the onus on Ukraine to end the war.
As evidence for his position, Zelensky cited other countries which have been attacked by Russian soldiers and continue to be partially occupied by them.
Ukraine has made incremental gains in the south amid fierce fighting with Russian troops, accounts from the front lines suggest.
Geolocated videos on Friday showed a wasteland of shell holes, abandoned trenches and wrecked military hardware in the area between Robotyne, Verbove and Novoprokopivka — a triangle of villages that hold the key for Ukrainians to getting closer to Tokmak, an important hub for Russian defenses.
The original article contains 282 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 29%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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Zelensky has forgotten to mention Mink and Mink2 agreement that he and EU have broken, thus lying to Russia, and even admitted it.
People really want to see more Ukrainians die, huh?
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Oh it’s you, idiot and Russia shill.
Do you wet your panties everytime Putin gets a new yacht, goes through another round of Botox or assassinates another journalist?
Your comment adds no value and we’re all worse off as a group for reading your ad hominem vitriol. Please go and sit in the corner and think about how useless you have been until you have something constructive to share.
Here is something constructive: the Russian Mafia state might just collapse soon, giving a window to hundreds of colonized peoples, like Chechens, Dagestanis, Mongols, Tatars, etc, a chance for freedom.
Russian nationalism is stronger in the rural areas than the urban ones… Odd, don’t you think?
All the colonized Native American tribes first…
Hey did anybody else consider the relevance of what happened in America? Have you guys heard? About America? America. What about America. No forget Russia, we’re taking about America right now! America…
This entire comment thread pretends like their poop doesn’t stink while telling someone else their poop stinks. American Exceptionalism is a bad thing to defend.
Hey, guys what about America!? Did anybody hear about America? AMERICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Oooh so now you go from “Russia is the bestest, Ukraine nazis” to “whuddabout” as you run out of anything constructive to say.
Not at all, I just think these comments are disingeneous and filled with fallacies. We use the same arguments when we pollute the earth (other countries should lead by example if we should stop polluting), so why does the same not apply to foreign interference? Maybe the USA should remove its 800+ military bases around the world before telling other countries they can’t interfere in another countries sovereignty. Imagine a country saying, USA please leave. Do you think the USA will just say, “OK sure I’ll pull all my troops out tomorrow.”
It adds plenty. You are shilling for the worst, most russophobic, thieving, murderous, most brutal mafia in the world.
No I am not shilling for the CIA thank you.
Oooh, what a great comeback.
In the meantime 1/4 of Russians shit in a hole in the ground for lack of plumbing while their children die in Ukraine with shit equipment so that Putin and his Mafia can collect mansions, private jets and yachts.
If the CIA really wanted to kill Russians they couldn’t have done it better.
It’s pretty clear the CIA wants dead Ukranians, 60,000 this summer ☹️
Nobody is forcing Ukraine to fight. > 90% want their country back, based on latest polls.
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As if Snowden is free, lol.
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he was ready for peace talks 3 days into invasion (russian military backed down, preparing for negotiations), but got talked out of it by Boris Johnson.
Nowadays his entire existence hinges on the war continuing. If it stops - no matter who wins, he will lose his seat, then get murdered.
Quenching the conflict over Donbass and Crimea was the main point of his election campaign. People on both sides believed he would finally put an end to it, after the low times under Poroshenko. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad, how it turned out in the end.
Pretty much. Dude’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. If he steps down, his propaganda machine has made it so he’ll probably get executed for betraying Ukraine. If he doesn’t, he’s stuck in a war he knows he can’t win without NATO troops.
he would have not genocided tens of thousands of ethnic Russians since 2014
Zelensky became president in May 2019…
edit: I am really being downvoted for pointing out a fact? lol.
If there isn’t going to be any peace discussions from Ukraine … how does this ever end?
With Russia leaving. They started this war. Fuck off with your “If there isn’t going to be any peace discussions from Ukraine … how does this ever end?”
Ukraine, and only Ukraine can be the one to talk about any negotiations. I’ll back their decisions whether it’s to fight to the bitter end, or stop and give up. Their people control their destiny. Russia on the other hand is the one that could simply bring an end to this by leaving. They could have brought peace in fact by simply never killing others. You’re victim blaming. Fuck off.
Why is it that country A starts occupying parts of country B, and some people start expecting country B to have peace discussions (ie, give land to country A)? There should be calls to country A to stop occupying country B’s land, and that’s it.
That’s how they have decided to spin this: co-opt the language of peace and dialogue to justify aggression.
Too bad it’s so obviously transparent.
I suppose your definition of being “pro-peace” involves sending billions in weapons?
Yup. Russia doesn’t understand diplomacy. Only force. It’s sad that russia acts this way, so, unfortunately, beating them is the only way to have lasting peace.
That or leadership change but I don’t think putler fears anything more than losing power and the people are either weak or live in a propaganda bubble.
Peace through Superior firepower.
There can be no peace if one side wants to wipe your very existence out.
I suppose you think the Russians have a right to invade, kill and rape Ukraine?
Well technically, considering historical precedent, anyone who feels they have more might than their neighbours has the right to do whatever they want to do to them. Historically, that was mostly conquest. Other’s use that might for what can generally be construed as the common good. (EG. Team America world police)
Ultimately the one who decides what is right and wrong is the collective, and honestly, the world is much less unified in its opinion than it probably should be.
Great, then let’s give ukraine f15es, fleets of predators and more, give them them much more might than their neighbor and let them solve this solution.
I’m fine with ukraine demonstrating that might means right.
Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I referring to.
Yeah, unironically it does in this instance.
if only your heros had billions* in weapons to use lol
- in USD, not rubles. Watching the red army collapse has been one of the few joys of the past few years
Russia doesn’t need to ask permission to leave, they just leave.
Seems like a lot fewer Russians and Ukrainians will die if the Russians left ukraine.
with all invaders dead, captured or back where they came from
Showing your math, how do you think that happens?
By making the invasion so untenable that they fuck off.
Which is what is happening.
in a sentence, tell me why I shouldn’t add you to my long and growing block list full of tankies
You should; they are.
Because there is no faster way to turn off critical thinking then to self-enforce an echo-chamber?
But whatever, you do you. I don’t actually give a shit if you block me. Like, holy fuck, “In a sentence, tell me why you deserve to be my friend.” God, I wish I had that sort of self-confidence. That may be why you want to live in an echo chamber, though.
It ends the second russia withdraws its troops or they are beaten out of Ukraine.
It takes two to make peace. And how can there’s be peace after the mass murder, torture and kidnapping of children, destruction and death wrought upon Ukraine.
If Canada did that to the USA, how keen for peace would you be exactly?
There can only be peace if there is justice.
Oh, so, war?
Korea ended in peace. Vietnam ended in peace. Iraq ended in peace. Afghanistan ended in peace. Hell, even China-Taiwan ended in what, by any means, could be defined as peace.
War and peace are intricately tied together and compromises are often made to save lives. Did the KMT never trade with the CCP again after literally getting booted out of their own country? Did China never trade with Japan again despite millions of people dead, raped, and experimented on?
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The president is an ethnic Russian you lying piece of garbage.
Russia has killed more ethnic Russians than Ukraine (or anyone else) ever has. Including 200k of it’s own soldiers. There is nobody in the world more russophobic than Russia.
As for “Banderite Nazis” I wonder how much they got in the elections? You know, those things that Russia doesn’t have, unless “United Russia” wins. Every single action taken by Russia over the past decade is an exact reflection of Naziism.
How can you be so completely and utterly brainwashed as to not see what’s right in front of your dumb face.
I mean the Nazis got into power because Victoria Nuland acted as kingmaker for them… this is all available on the internet from reputable sources. It just hasn’t hit your brainwashed mass media sources because you watch literal propaganda and are such a useful idiot that rather than think critically you regurgitste it on link sharing forums. Sad.
Yeah Nazis elected a Jewish man president. You truly do believe such bullshit.
In the meantime the real Nazis were in an alliance with Russia until the Russians were betrayed.
The USA was fine to let the Nazis take over Europe until Japan invaded Pearl Harbour. What’s your point?
The US played the same role towards the UK as it is playing now towards Ukraine - providing aid - until Pearl Harbor.
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Good question, every war ends in some kind of negotiation, even for surrender. I think when Russia loses, Putin is unlikely to keep power, and some sort of agreement will happen without him.
Russia can, very straightforwardly, retreat to Russia. Boom, peace!
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Hey… stop making sense! All the bots and teenagers here think you’re stupid!
Peace? Are you crazy??? You keep that kinda smart talk to yourself! We don’t use the P word here! Here we just want to be angry all the time and blame some imaginary enemy for all our problems.
I agree, let’s have peace! Russians should go the fuck home
